Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Sinta]

Hayashi,

You are forgetting that Ichigo had doubts himself of Inoue's loyality and states that he came to fight Grimm. If you want to claim that ichigo came to save Rukia because of duty that is fine, but at least he came to save rukia and not fight someone. I repeat, Ichigo says himself that he came to fight grimm. So if we really examine the parallel and choose not to look deeper (or try to interpret in a way where our pairing looks better) Inoue's rescue was just in addition to what Ichigo was doing. This is our breakdown, Ichigo stated he was there for duty (rukia); Ichigo stated he came to fight grimm (Inoue) if you want to talk it at face value your position still doesn't look any better. However, I think there is more to it than that. (In both scenes, not just Rukias) there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration. The duty scene doesn't explain Ichigo actions and distress concerning rukia. Has duty ever taken someone so far? Have you ever heard the best war motivator. Its not money, or duty. Its faith. Religion has been using faith for many years to take people to battle. Faith is a belief that spurs you to action. Something deep and personal that flow with in you. Look further does someone who has a duty be willing to swear on their soul to save someone? (Renji and Ichigo both do this mind you) Renji and Ichigo have the same feelings, say the same thing. Did renji also change because of duty? I think this is a tough argument to make.

[zed21]

Are you trying to say that Ichigo is in love with Orihime from just that?

While I do understand that Orihime loves Ichigo a great deal, you must also understand that Ichigo currently does feel the exact same way back (with the whole "even if i was for 5 times over, i will still love the same man"). So until he does exactly that, please do not even think about concluding as such as he hasn't intereacted with her much during this arc or even the previous ( at least not as much as Rukia anyhow).

As for the Rukia/Ichigo bit, they both have deep feelings for each other (maybe not love just yet but it does extend beyond the usual friendship (given the support they have given each other at different times during the manga (like rukia saving ichigo from grimjow to her bring him out of dispair to Ichigo saving her from exercution and other thing that i can name)). While it is not love at this point, it is a strong indeed a strong bond. Though I must question as to how close Ichigo and Orihime really are at thie very moment.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Hayashi,
You are forgetting that Ichigo had doubts himself of Inoue's loyality and states that he came to fight Grimm.

Ichigo never had any doubts about Orihime's loyalty. Only Soul Society suspected her of being a traitor.

If you want to claim that ichigo came to save Rukia because of duty that is fine, but at least he came to save rukia and not fight someone. I repeat, Ichigo says himself that he came to fight grimm.

Ichigo was saying that he came to HM with intentions of fighting Grimm, Ulq and Aizen. He was saying Grimm was right in the sense that he indeed came to fight. He NEVER said that was his main purpose in HM.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ichigo never had any doubts about Orihime's loyalty. Only Soul Society suspected her of being a traitor.

Ichigo's words would indicate otherwise.

Ichigo confirms he has doubts
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/13/ <----bottom part of the page
"So inoue didn't come here on her own" -- meaning he thought she may have---> he's doubting her.
Then Uqu says,
"Even after coming to save her, her friends harbored feelings of doubt"

Can't get clearer then that except him saying "i doubted her" So yes he clearly doubted her. Not enough to not save her, but he did doubt her, which is a poor reflection of their relationship.

Note: this is probably part of the reason that Ichigo was so pissed and attacked. He was pissed at Uqu for taking her and making her look like a traitor, but even more then that, he's pissed that he doubted his friend who he should have believed.

Ichigo was saying that he came to HM with intentions of fighting Grimm, Ulq and Aizen. He was saying Grimm was right in the sense that he indeed came to fight. He NEVER said that was his main purpose in HM and that he was rescuing Orihime out of duty. He doesn't even have any duty to rescue her in the first place, he rescues her because he cares about her.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/280/06/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/280/07/

Grimm made a good point. Ichigo says I came to save inoue, but his actions don't comfort with that. Why didn't he just run away? Grimm calls him out on it.

"you're wrong, you came here to fight...you're not seeing the path that your instincts lead you to)

Mind you, this was the point that Ichigo's hollow and Kenpachi were trying to drive home to him in his inner world. Ichigo is a fighter, he seeks to fight. Grimm finally made ichigo understand that.

Ichigo was lying to himself and Grimm called him on it. You can't get anymore plain then that.

The aizen comment, this is what you are referring to right?

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/20/

just because Ichigo says the is going to have a flawless victory doesn't mean it negates what he said. The inoue ichigo shippers apply the same logic to ichigo and Rukia's duty chapter. So how is this one different?
And don't forget what he says right before.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/285/17/

Don't forget, I'm the same as you. "I am here to fight"

Sorry it looks pretty clear that he came to fight, but that he's taking his friends back with him.

If you aren't willing to accept analysis of circumstance of what is actually happening in any given scene you need to be willing to do it all the time and not just when it works in your favor.

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Don't forget, I'm the same as you. "I am here to fight"

Sorry it looks pretty clear that he came to fight, but that he's taking his friends back with him.

If you aren't willing to accept analysis of circumstance of what is actually happening in any given scene you need to be willing to do it all the time and not just when it works in your favor.

I think he came to fight for sure, but he came to fight for a reason not just because he likes fighting. Sure there was probably a part of him that wanted to settle the score with Grimmjow but he came primarily to fight and protect Inoue, his friend.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Ichigo's words would indicate otherwise.

Ichigo confirms he has doubts
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/13/ <----bottom part of the page
"So inoue didn't come here on her own" -- meaning he thought she may have---> he's doubting her.
Then Uqu says,
"Even after coming to save her, her friends harbored feelings of doubt"

Can't get clearer then that except him saying "i doubted her" So yes he clearly doubted her. Not enough to not save her, but he did doubt her, which is a poor reflection of their relationship.

No. Look at chp 238 pg 11. Ichigo gets insulted by Yamamoto just mentioning the idea of Orihime being a traitor. Ichigo's comment in 270 was him confirming his own correctness. In other words what he said was like saying " So I was right, Orihime didn't come to HM on her own."

Ulq's words were just him trying to play more mind games He stated earlier himself that he was trying to lay seeds of doubt in Orihime friends and he failed to convince her friends, but succeeding in convincing SS.

Grimm made a good point. Ichigo says I came to save inoue, but his actions don't comfort with that. Why didn't he just run away? Grimm calls him out on it.

I've said this before, he didn't run against Bya in SS either. Not at the Shrine of Pentinance nor at the execution. What is the difference here?

"you're wrong, you came here to fight...you're not seeing the path that your instincts lead you to)

Mind you, this was the point that Ichigo's hollow and Kenpachi were trying to drive home to him in his inner world. Ichigo is a fighter, he seeks to fight. Grimm finally made ichigo understand that.

Ichigo was lying to himself and Grimm called him on it. You can't get anymore plain then that.

If that's true, then the same thing applies to Rukia, he was just fooling himself by convincing himself that he was there to save her when he really came to fight.

Don't forget, I'm the same as you. "I am here to fight"

Sorry it looks pretty clear that he came to fight, but that he's taking his friends back with him.

If you aren't willing to accept analysis of circumstance of what is actually happening in any given scene you need to be willing to do it all the time and not just when it works in your favor.

Like I said your logic is circular. You apply it to one situation and not the other. If you want to believe that by coming to HM Ichigo was just acting on his subconscious urge to fight and that Grimm made him aware of his "true" self, that's fine. But then how is what he did for Rukia any different? How can you say now that he acted out of love for Rukia but only out of instinct to fight for Orihime? Is the Ichigo that went to SS a different Ichigo that went to HM?

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

No. Look at chp 238 pg 11. Ichigo gets insulted by Yamamoto just mentioning the idea of Orihime being a traitor. Ichigo's comment in 270 was him confirming his own correctness. In other words what he said was like saying " So I was right, Orihime didn't come to HM on her own."

Ulq's words were just him trying to play more mind games He stated earlier himself that he was trying to lay seeds of doubt in Orihime friends and he failed to convince her friends, but succeeding in convincing SS.

You are ignoring Ichigo's own words. His words clearly show that he doubted her and you are simply ignoring them. Ichigo didn't say "I was right" and that not how Ulq's understood it either.

He say's "So inoue didn't come here on her own" that doesn't mean oh i was right she didn't. It implies that he thought maybe she did. That's also how Ulq's understood his comment and theres not reason for us to not take him at his words.

Ulq's playing mind games uh? Where does he say that? It seems to me that hes making an observation. How would that be a mind game?

I've said this before, he didn't run against Bya in SS either. Not at the Shrine of Pentinance nor at the execution. What is the difference here?

You are getting off the initial comparison here. I thought we were talking about what he said not his actions. Ichigo said he came to fight Griimm, did Ichigo ever do that with Byukuya? Not to my knowledge. But he did say he gained power for Rukia and if Byukuya's pride had to do with killing Rukia he would crush that pride. That seems like a big difference to me. From what I can see Ichigo was trying to beat the will out of byukuya to hurt rukia, he gave up two different chance to kill in the hopes of making a point. It wasn't about winning. He could have won at any time. It was about saving rukia. "Why won't you save Rukia?" That was the question he kept asking. it was only until Byukuya got the crap beaten out of him was even open to the discussion. That was the theme of that fight. I don't see saying anything like that in the HM.

If that's true, then the same thing applies to Rukia, he was just fooling himself by convincing himself that he was there to save her when he really came to fight.

*Sign* My entire point was that each scene is deeper then just whats on the surface and you have to do a bit a digging to really understand whats going on. Circumstances are important that was my entire point. I don't understand how you are missing that. This is what I just said.

Like I said your logic is circular. You apply it to one situation and not the other. If you want to believe that by coming to HM Ichigo was just acting on his subconscious urge to fight and that Grimm made him aware of his "true" self, that's fine. But then how is what he did for Rukia any different? How can you say now that he acted out of love for Rukia but only out of instinct to fight for Orihime? Is the Ichigo that went to SS a different Ichigo that went to HM?

I'm not the one applying it in one situation and not the other. You are. You say to take Ichigo at his word in the SS arc but not in HM. I was showing the flaw your guys logic, I thought I made that very clear. here is my quote

" This is our breakdown, Ichigo stated he was there for duty (rukia); Ichigo stated he came to fight grimm (Inoue) if you want to talk it at face value your position still doesn't look any better. However, I think there is more to it than that. (In both scenes, not just Rukias) there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration. "

This is our breakdown, Ichigo stated he was there for duty (rukia); Ichigo stated he came to fight grimm (Inoue) if you want to talk it at face value your position still doesn't look any better. However, I think there is more to it than that. (In both scenes, not just Rukias) there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration.

If you aren't going to read what I write don't answer my posts.

I don't think Ichigo came to ss just for duty and i don't think ichigo came just to fight grimm. There is more to those scenes but not if one isn't willing to look under the surface of the interaction. If you are willing to do that, you need to do that in both circumstances not just one.

[corporeality]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

Ichigo is saving Inoue out of DUTY and with Rukia it was motivated by DESIRE.

I'm sure you can elaborate on this if asked, so I'm asking. Can you elaborate on this? Saving Rukia as a duty has been stated by Ichigo. No statements of the same line of thought in regards to Orihime has ever been made.

Originally Posted by Sinta

You are ignoring Ichigo's own words. His words clearly show that he doubted her and you are simply ignoring them.

Having read the link you gave, it said: "So Inoue really didn't... come to Hueco Mundo by her own will after all." Bolded parts by me. "Really didn't" and "after all" are indications not of disbelief but a reaffirmation of something he's thought of all along. It's not Sabaku Kyu who's ignoring Ichigo's words here.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by corporeality

Having read the link you gave, it said: "So Inoue really didn't... come to Hueco Mundo by her own will after all." Bolded parts by me. "Really didn't" and "after all" are indications not of disbelief but a reaffirmation of something he's thought of all along. It's not Sabaku Kyu who's ignoring Ichigo's words here.

Sorry you are wrong my friend. The mere fact that he had to think those things confirm he had doubts. Not that he believe it, there is difference, but that he had doubts. (meaning hes not sure) Look a the whole quote
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/270/13/
So inoue didn't come after all, implies that he believed one way but that he wasn't sure. That is the meaning of the word "doubt" or do I need get you a definition? The language alone confirms this but if you add Ulq observation and comment I have hard time seeing otherwise.

So sorry both you and Kyu are incorrect.

Edit: One more point, if the interpretation that you and Kyu are trying to pull is in fact correct why word it that way? There is much easier ways to say I'm right then that isn't there? That interpretation doesnt make sense with that phrase.

[corporeality]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Sorry you are wrong my friend. The mere fact that he had to think those things confirm he had doubts. Not that he believe it, there is difference, but that he had doubts. (meaning hes not sure) Look a the whole quote

I did look at the whole quote. I even looked at the next page where Ichigo explains himself: "Don't you get it? Because of you, Inoue was marked as a traitor!" and Ulquiorra confirms he'd planned it all along. Ichigo says, "Yappari," when he said his--and I would just like to say it again--"So Inoue really didn't... come to Hueco Mundo by her own will after all." Him thinking of those things do not confirm his doubts. It's worded that way to impress that he thought all along that she wasn't a traitor.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by Sinta

You are ignoring Ichigo's own words. His words clearly show that he doubted her and you are simply ignoring them. Ichigo didn't say "I was right" and that not how Ulq's understood it either.

And I'm saying you're ignoring the fact that completely contradicts how he acted earlier

Spoiler for chapter 238:

Ichigo is thrown into a fit by the very mention of Orihime being a traitor, but he questions her loyalty himself? He's being hypocritcal?

Ulq's playing mind games uh? Where does he say that? It seems to me that hes making an observation. How would that be a mind game?

He explains it earlier

Spoiler for Chapter 249:

He's continuing with his game from before, trying to make Ichigo doubt his own confidence in Orihime's loyalty.

You are getting off the initial comparison here. I thought we were talking about what he said not his actions. Ichigo said he came to fight Griimm, did Ichigo ever do that with Byukuya? Not to my knowledge. But he did say he gained power for Rukia and if Byukuya's pride had to do with killing Rukia he would crush that pride. That seems like a big difference to me. From what I can see Ichigo was trying to beat the will out of byukuya to hurt rukia, he gave up two different chance to kill in the hopes of making a point.

Did Bya ever say to Ichigo what Grimm did? Not to my knowledge. Ichigo didn't say he came to fight Grimm. Grimm said those words to Ichigo and he agreed whereas Byakuya never said anything like this. You're assuming that if he had, Ichigo would've said something different.

And I don't see your point about Ichigo not killing Bya. Ichigo doesn't fight to kill anyway.

It wasn't about winning. He could have won at any time. It was about saving rukia. "Why won't you save Rukia?" That was the question he kept asking. it was only until Byukuya got the crap beaten out of him was even open to the discussion. That was the theme of that fight. I don't see saying anything like that in the HM.

What does that have to with anything? He asked Bya that because he was her adoptive brother, Grimm isn't any enemy to be reasoned with that way. He simply needs to be stopped.

*Sign* My entire point was that each scene is deeper then just whats on the surface and you have to do a bit a digging to really understand whats going on. Circumstances are important that was my entire point. I don't understand how you are missing that. This is what I just said.

But didn't you argue that I wasn't taking Ichigo's words literally? ( About what he said to Ulq and Grimm)

I'm not the one applying it in one situation and not the other. You are. You say to take Ichigo at his word in the SS arc but not in HM. I was showing the flaw your guys logic, I thought I made that very clear. here is my quote

" This is our breakdown, Ichigo stated he was there for duty (rukia); Ichigo stated he came to fight grimm (Inoue) if you want to talk it at face value your position still doesn't look any better. However, I think there is more to it than that. (In both scenes, not just Rukias) there are other factors that have to be taken into consideration. "

If you aren't going to read what I write don't answer my posts.

I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I never said anything like that. My opinion is this: There is no difference in the priority Ichigo has in rescuing Orihime in HM vs. the priority he had in rescuing Rukia in SS. Only the circumstances are different. If that's the position you were trying assert then we are in agreement

[Lucifer-Angel]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Ichigo said he came to fight Griimm, did Ichigo ever do that with Byukuya? Not to my knowledge.

But, but, but, Ishida mentioned that he if he were to really execute Rukia's liberation completely, he had to fight. If he wasnt prepared to fight Byakuya, why gain power to be stronger if he ain't going to fight anyone?

You are seeing a parallel in the fights of Ichigo vs Byakuya and Ichigo vs Grimmjow. True, there could be some parallelism drawn here; however, there needed to be some sheer differences on the line drawn because I personally do not see why Ichigo's fight with Byakuya will spell the full-blown romance for IchiRuki.

First of all, you claimed to have seen some traces of insincerity in Ichigo when he claimed (finally) that he is in HM to fight Grimmjow and defeat him. Before that, where in this sentence saying anything about him not here to save Orihime? You have to first and foremost understand that there exists a difference in the impetus in saving both girls, and to think that Ichigo is definitely not in HM to save Orihime is blasphemous if you based that on a line that was not even saying for sure that he was there for Orihime.

There are a few reasons why it is kind of ludicrous to consider that Ichigo is here because he missed Grimmjow and the gang:

1. First of all, to regard that he is not in HM to save Orihime will be disregarding his quasi-depression in the aftermath of being informed of her possible death. You are discounting his rage at Yamamoto, and that he indeed had defended her. Let's forget romance; if fighting is all he cared about, wouldnt he be like Kenpachi, grinned and said "Hell yea, i have an excuse to fight now?"

2. Second, why protect her in the fight for at least two times as the fight is going on? You have to understand that he didnt make the statement on his own. Perhaps only after about half an hour that he actually agreed to the statement - after being cheered up by Orihime. Let's not involve her cheers here.

For making a statement like that based on one chapter is an oblivion to the earlier chapters. Remember that when the fight began, he was displaying a reluctance to charge at Grimmjow with his full-powered Vizard mode. If you observe carefully, Grimmjow was pissed that he is fighting half-heartedly; and thus began to try to rage him up.

3. You are implying that Ichigo if forsaking Orihime for fighting - but the later chapters proved it wrong. He is there to have Orihime saved from HM, and he cares for her wellbeing.

If any, his speech to Byakuya, and his constant pleas of asking him on the reasons for his refusal in saving Rukia is more like his concern for Byakuya and his family connections. Remember that as much as he was glorified as the hero in SS, Rukia wasnt saved by him alone. Sure that he needed to crush Byakuya's pride to get him unwilling to kill Rukia; but wasn't that an action of asking for alliance rather than really grudging against him? Byakuya made a correct observation; he was fighting against the law of SS rather than fighting him.

It was the law which dictate that Rukia is commiting a crime; and it was the law which had unfairly judged against Rukia who, in Ichigo's eyes did nothing wrong. Thus, rather than grudging against Byakuya, he simply didn't get the reasons why Byakuya wouldn't save his sister. This is something which he failed to understand simply because he is also a big brother - it is only natural that Byakuya's refusal pissed him off.

Spoiler for lala:

I don't think Ichigo came to ss just for duty and i don't think ichigo came just to fight grimm. There is more to those scenes but not if one isn't willing to look under the surface of the interaction. If you are willing to do that, you need to do that in both circumstances not just one.

Well, you seemed to be thinking too deep, and veering away for those in Ichigo/Rukia interactions and never gave too much consideration into those involving Ichigo and Orihime.

[cellardoor]

I agree with sinta on this doubt debate. Even if the line "so Inoue didn't come on her free will after all" might go both ways of affirmation of doubt or faith, however Ulqi's comment makes it clear in what way that line goes. Besides, Ichigo not denying the comment leaves no room to misinterpret. Ichigo values his friends very much and being accused of doubting a comrade's loyalty wouldn't go without a refusal, were it not true. There should have been a comeback full of yelling and anger for this accusation of Ulqi's.

So it's like this:
-So Inoue wasn't a traitor after all?
+ Oh? You actually had doubts?? How surprising...
- .......

So I don't see how it is not doubting.

[corporeality]

Originally Posted by cellardoor

I agree with sinta on this doubt debate. Even if the line "so Inoue didn't come on her free will after all" might go both ways of affirmation of doubt or faith, however Ulqi's comment makes it clear in what way that line goes. Besides, Ichigo not denying the comment leaves no room to misinterpret. Ichigo values his friends very much and being accused of doubting a comrade's loyalty wouldn't go without a refusal, were it not true. There should have been a comeback full of yelling and anger for this accusation of Ulqi's.

But Ichigo did deny Ulquiorra's words. It's right there in the next page. I know we're all focusing on Ichigo's words and Ulquiorra's comeback on that one page alone, but there are pages right after that wherein Ichigo explains his stand on the subject. There's even a yelled comeback full of anger. Seriously.

And since "really didn't" and "after all" seem to have different effects to different people, Ichigo's words in Japanese start with, "Yappari, Inoue--" and although that might just start a whole debate on the semantics of the Japanese language, "yappari" is usually, "also", "as I thought," "absolutely." Make of that what you will.

So it's like this:
-So Inoue wasn't a traitor after all?
+ Oh? You actually had doubts?? How surprising...
- .......

Actually, it's more:
- So Inoue really didn't... come to Hueco Mundo by her own will after all...!"
+ Surprising. Even after coming to save her, her Nakama harbored a bit of doubt within themselves?
- Don't you get it? Because of you, Inoue was marked as a traitor!"
+ I'd hope so. Otherwise, our plans would have failed.
- You bastard!

Which is what happened in canon. And to note, Ulquiorra ends his sentence as a question. It's not a statement of fact. Given how they planned to make Orihime look like a traitor, it comes of more as veiled confirmation to the success of their plan.

And I can see it now. This topic will never end.

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by cellardoor

Ulqi's comment makes it clear in what way that line goes.

How? Ulq told Ichigo he knew for a fact that Rukia was dead moments before that.
He was trying to get Ichigo upset enough to seriously fight him, he was saying anything he knew would piss him off.

Besides, Ichigo not denying the comment leaves no room to misinterpret. Ichigo values his friends very much and being accused of doubting a comrade's loyalty wouldn't go without a refusal, were it not true. There should have been a comeback full of yelling and anger for this accusation of Ulqi's.

He called Ulq a bastard and blamed him for Orihime being called a traitor. If Ulq's words held any meaning to Ichigo he would've hesitated like he did when Grimm said he came to HM to fight.

[cellardoor]

- So Inoue really didn't... come to Hueco Mundo by her own will after all...!"
+ Surprising. Even after coming to save her, her Nakama harbored a bit of doubt within themselves?
- Don't you get it? Because of you, Inoue was marked as a traitor!"
+ I'd hope so. Otherwise, our plans would have failed.
- You bastard!

Ugh I really have forgotten the following of the convo, sorry it was not intentional, I am just sleepy. But still, it is even more of a confirmation from Ichigo's side. Ichigo didn't deny he doubted: it is because of Ulqi's plan Inoue seemed like a traitor and Ichigo fell for it since he is not denying, instead he gets more angry, angry at both himself and Ulqi. Oh well, you are right, this topic will never end.

[Lucifer-Angel]

Originally Posted by corporeality

And I can see it now. This topic will never end.

*shrugs* Yes, why not get a super translator here? I mean, we ain't specialists in Japanese, my understanding is as good as yours. As long as we have a specialist confirmation, we will keep with this - which is entirely pointless.

Originally Posted by corporeality

Which is what happened in canon. And to note, Ulquiorra ends his sentence as a question. It's not a statement of fact. Given how they planned to make Orihime look like a traitor, it comes of more as veiled confirmation to the success of their plan.

Ulquiorra's had a habit of being vague. The very fact that he is saying about doubts was because he wanted to make both Ichigo and Orihime sounded bad. It is not fact, but a trigger to more taunts from him. Clearly those who are specializing in interrogation will tell you that increasing the doubts of the person you are interrogating is the best method in breaking his wills.

I fail to see why Ulquiorra's words are definite canon proofs of his doubt, it just increased the notion that he is getting Ichigo into a fight no matter what.

*on the side note - Why do we rely on him anyway?

Spoiler for Manga:

Last we see, his information on Rukia being dead proved to be a wrong statement.

Someone's trying to goad someone - thus the more reasons why his words are not be taken with full dependence upon its reliability.

[corporeality]

Originally Posted by cellardoor

Ichigo didn't deny he doubted: it is because of Ulqi's plan Inoue seemed like a traitor and Ichigo fell for it since he is not denying, instead he gets more angry, angry at both himself and Ulqi.

Sabaku Kyu has already answered this:

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

And I'm saying you're ignoring the fact that completely contradicts how he acted earlier

Spoiler for chapter 238:

Ichigo is thrown into a fit by the very mention of Orihime being a traitor, but he questions her loyalty himself? He's being hypocritcal?

Ichigo's actions are completely contradictory to the reading that he doubted Orihime. On the other hand, the fact that he's saying "As I thought, Inoue really didn't come to Hueco Mundo of her own free will, after all!" supports the reading that he never doubted Orihime. Apart from an alternate reading of that line and a vague remark from Ulquiorra, what supports the idea that Ichigo doubted?

Originally Posted by Lucifer-Angel

*on the side note - Why do we rely on him anyway?

Spoiler for Manga:

Last we see, his information on Rukia being dead proved to be a wrong statement.

Someone's trying to goad someone - thus the more reasons why his words are not be taken with full dependence upon its reliability.

There's also the fact that his summation of Ichigo and Orihime's abilities were wrong, his belief in thinking they've completely caged Orihime mentally is wrong as well. Now that you mention it, Ulquiorra jumps to conclusions a lot and, in the long run, is mostly proven wrong.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

And I'm saying you're ignoring the fact that completely contradicts how he acted earlier

Spoiler for chapter 238:

Ichigo is thrown into a fit by the very mention of Orihime being a traitor, but he questions her loyalty himself? He's being hypocritcal?

So are you saying because ichigo acted one way that he’s not allowed to act another? I would answer your question as Yes, he is acting the hypocritic, is there something that says that ichigo can't be hypocritical? Some would say he is already hypocritical in his actions, he wants to protect people but won’t allow anyone to protect him. Is that not hypocritical?

He explains it earlier

Spoiler for Chapter 249:

He's continuing with his game from before, trying to make Ichigo doubt his own confidence in Orihime's loyalty.

Exactly, you proved that that Ulq was trying to create that impression and he succeed in doing. You just confirmed my point. Just because Ulq meant to create doubt doesn’t excuse Ichigo from doing it.

Did Bya ever say to Ichigo what Grimm did? Not to my knowledge. Ichigo didn't say he came to fight Grimm. Grimm said those words to Ichigo and he agreed whereas Byakuya never said anything like this. You're assuming that if he had, Ichigo would've said something different.

And I don't see your point about Ichigo not killing Bya. Ichigo doesn't fight to kill anyway.

Who cares what Byukuya could have said or how Ichigo could have answered. Its totally pointless to conjecture at this point. The answer is in kubo's head and theres no way we could get to that information. We can only compare what Ichigo/Byukuya did say and why, to what Ichigo/Grimm did say and why. What matters is what he did say and the reasonable inferences we can make from those. The tone and reasons for the fights appear totally different and so far removed from the original point that i'm not sure why you brought it up in the first place. I haven’t done a thorough examination of Byukuya and Grimm fights. Maybe I will do that but I didn’t bring it up in the first place. So if you wish we can just drop it.

As for the next part, I said,

Ichigo said he came to fight Griimm, did Ichigo ever do that with Byukuya? Not to my knowledge. But he did say he gained power for Rukia and if Byukuya's pride had to do with killing Rukia he would crush that pride. That seems like a big difference to me. From what I can see Ichigo was trying to beat the will out of byukuya to hurt rukia, he gave up two different chance to kill in the hopes of making a point. It wasn't about winning. He could have won at any time. It was about saving rukia. "Why won't you save Rukia?" That was the question he kept asking. it was only until Byukuya got the crap beaten out of him was even open to the discussion. That was the theme of that fight. I don't see saying anything like that in the HM.

"He gave up two chances to kill in the hopes of making a point"
You could also say he gave up two chances to win in hopes of making a point. There isn't anything like that in the griimm battle thats why I don't think you can compare them. I repeat, the themes and focus of the fights were totally different at least on the surface. And again, I'm really not sure why you brought it up in the first place.

True,

What does that have to with anything? He asked Bya that because he was her adoptive brother, Grimm isn't any enemy to be reasoned with that way. He simply needs to be stopped.

I thought you said that ichigo was just coming to save inoue and it was all about her and that Grimm, Ichigo and Ulq comments didn’t mean what they look like? Or is that not your position? Furthermore, If Grimm is an enemy that can't be reasoned with and has to be stopped doesn't that imply that Ichigo did come just to or mainly to fight grimm like he said? So which is it? Did Ichigo come to fight or come to save inoue?

Ichigo's words shows us why ichigo is fighting. If you believe that Ichigo’s desire, motivation etc in each fight is the same why does he say such different things?

But didn't you argue that I wasn't taking Ichigo's words literally? ( About what he said to Ulq and Grimm)

Thats what it seemed like wasn't it? Forgive me if I miss understood but it sounds like that’s what you were arguing. However, my orginal post about this conversation wasn't even directed at you but at Hayashi who was comparing desire/duty in the rescue of inoue and rukia. I was asking these types of questions, “Are you saying that the Duty comment should be taken at face value? if so, then shouldn’t ichigo’s comment to Ulq be as well?” I think that was the original point where you jumped in.

I think we are misunderstanding each other here. I never said anything like that. My opinion is this: There is no difference in the priority Ichigo has in rescuing Orihime in HM vs. the priority he had in rescuing Rukia in SS. Only the circumstances are different. If that's the position you were trying assert then we are in agreement

I will make myself clear then we don’t misunderstand each other as I now understand your position. (It sure took as a while to get there didn’t it?) I don't think i agree with you; I don't think that Ichigo's desire to save Rukia is equal or the same to Inoue. I think each girl is different and ichigo's feelings and motivation are different with respects to each girl. BUT, I think there are arguments on both side concerning those feelings and desire and its not very clear either way. I made my post to Hayashi in the first so that people would try (sometimes its hard) to be consistent in their subjective interpretation as its really easy to let your bias (myself included) get in the way. Using one standard to interpret one scene and using another to interpret another makes for bad debate.

Originally Posted by Lucifer-Angel

*on the side note - Why do we rely on him anyway?

Spoiler for manga:

Last we see, his information on Rukia being dead proved to be a wrong statement.

Someone's trying to goad someone - thus the more reasons why his words are not be taken with full dependence upon its reliability.

Why do people rely on Rangiku words concerning Ichigo/rukia/inoue?

The truth is however, people don't rely on him, its not just his words that we take into consideration. Its his words in combination with ichigo's that make the argument it.
Ulq is merely observing Ichigo's behavior and there isn't any indication that he was incorrect.

[Lucifer-Angel]

Originally Posted by corporeality

Ichigo's actions are completely contradictory to the reading that he doubted Orihime. On the other hand, the fact that he's saying "As I thought, Inoue really didn't come to Hueco Mundo of her own free will, after all!" supports the reading that he never doubted Orihime. Apart from an alternate reading of that line and a vague remark from Ulquiorra, what supports the idea that Ichigo doubted?

True that it is up to a person's interpretation which contributed upon how amazing-ly diverged the opinions could be. Then again, even if one's interpretation is as good as another, there's another thing that needed attention - which is the coherence of that particular interpretation. Like I mentioned, the thing about Ichigo doubting Orihime holds no ground simple because that one sentence, even if proven to be favouring the assumption that he doubted her, his other actions didn't not do such.

Originally Posted by corporeality

There's also the fact that his summation of Ichigo and Orihime's abilities were wrong, his belief in thinking they've completely caged Orihime mentally is wrong as well. Now that you mention it, Ulquiorra jumps to conclusions a lot and, in the long run, is mostly proven wrong.

Perhaps - because he didn't factor correctly on Ichigo will react simply because he did not understand him. He is incorrect because he didn't understand Ichigo's unwavering loyalty towards his friends - which is why creating a situation which allowed Orihime to be thought as a traitor failed

Spoiler for manga:

as much as coercing a fight from using the news of Rukia being dead.

Originally Posted by Sinta

Why do people rely on Rangiku words concerning Ichigo/rukia/inoue?

Well, why bring it up? That chapter contained no remote solid proof in shipping-wise except that Orihime had conflicting feelings, and that Rangiku was trying to comfort her. Why relate this to Ulquiorra?

A blatant example on how things can get misconstrued simply because Rangiku comforting Orihime is just that - words of comfort. There had since been no issue of any diverging opinions simply because her words are just that simple. No indication on possible solidification of any ship. And you saying that is an insult to Rangiku's character by equating her sincerity as though she's goading Orihime to fight for her man, simply because you brought an unrelated comparison of Rangiku and Ulquiorra?