Israel, Hamas & the Gaza Strip

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by Deadly Delusion

http://www.pres-outlook.org/news-and...e-in-gaza.html

So tell me, why do the inhabitants of Palestine deserve to die because of their idiot leaders?

Because apparently, morality, right and generally, something that should be default setting, like for example, NOT dragging innocent people to the mess, is totally irrelevant when it comes to war. So sad but so true.

[Deadly Delusion]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and about the why
1)they voted for their idiot leaders (who have always said that fighting israel is their main objective)

What about the 2,368,508 (57.1%) of the Palestinians who didn't?

2)the "iz a din el qassam martyers brigade" (rocket firing ass-holes) is made up of their own children, they dont come from outside you know
educate your children better next time

Don't see why this makes the Palestinian people as a whole deserve to be murdered by illegal weapons.

3)there are 1.4 million people in the gaza strip
there are 5000 millitents
everytime some ass-hole hamas leader gets blown to bits, you see tens of thousends of people in his funeral protesting against isreal
where are these people now ?
why arent they protesting against the hamas RIGHT NOW ?
are they scared ?
if a millitent is hiding in your house, you wait till his asleep and you kill him
if there are more then one you get a few friends together and you drive them by force
if you cant act yourself, call the hot line israel set up and say "there are millitents here, come kill them"
why arent the people who are so oppressed and suffering allowing the hamas to keep fighting
why arent they doing anything to stop them

well do our best to avoid killing innocents as much as possible
but if they are content with sitting still and letting hamas keep fighting... they shouldnt complain

They're not oppressed and suffering. Hamas treats the Palestinian people relatively well, as far as I'm aware. Hamas just doesn't like Jews. At all.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

well do our best to avoid killing innocents as much as possible

This line is just... i honestly, cannot begin to describe it.
I know that Israel has gotten shit as well, i know that Hamas is not innocent, God, no, both sides are wrong, but this: <-- two wrongs do not make a right.
I can't stand seeing on tv, like i just saw, that they fired again some protestants today and a bullet landed in the head of an innocent 15 yrs old Palestinian. These kind of things, are not and must not be justified in any way possible.
This is not fiction where right/wrong/morality applies and everyone is light-hearted, it is real life where nothing can be "we will strike but we'll do our best not to cause a FULL massacre". Then again, apparently, it can be.
God honest, i don't know what else to say. Other than i am just praying for it to stop.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

1) wait... what
the gaza strip is only composed of 1.4 million people
and the hamas was voted into office by the majority of the people of the west band and gaza
what are these numbers please

2)illegal weapons ?
and again, hamas is made up of your children
dont just let them do as they wish

3)hamas is using their own civilians as human shields
millitents who are moving out in the open drag children with them to keep warplanes from killing them
they force their way into peoples homes and fire rockets from their living rooms
they hide weapon stashs under peoples homes and forbid them to leave (so israel cant bomb the place without killing the people)
and the only reason why israel keeps attacking as we speak is becouse hamas refueses to stop firing rockets

the suffering of the people in gaza presists becouse hamas wont quit fighting
make them

Why don't you take some hostages, instead of trying "your best" to avoid killing innocent people?
And frankly blade, it seems you are trying to justify what Israel is doing at the moment. Do you believe it is "right"? Or at least, "not that wrong"?

[Deadly Delusion]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

1) wait... what
the gaza strip is only composed of 1.4 million people
and the hamas was voted into office by the majority of the people of the west band and gaza
what are these numbers please

2)illegal weapons ?
and again, hamas is made up of your children
dont just let them do as they wish

3)hamas is using their own civilians as human shields
millitents who are moving out in the open drag children with them to keep warplanes from killing them
they force their way into peoples homes and fire rockets from their living rooms
they hide weapon stashs under peoples homes and forbid them to leave (so israel cant bomb the place without killing the people)
and the only reason why israel keeps attacking as we speak is becouse hamas refueses to stop firing rockets

the suffering of the people in gaza presists becouse hamas wont quit fighting
make them

1. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Palesti...onal_Authority Population of 4,148,000 people.

2. Yes, Israel is using internationally banned (chemical/biological) weapons against Palestine.

3. And you wish to liberate them by firing missiles at them? By killing them? My, you're sounding a lot like the US. Sorry, but you don't stop Hamas by killing innocent people.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

1)the numbers in gaza are 1.4 million
the rest are in the west bank and have nothing to do with the fighting (they are the ones under the control of the palestinan authority

While innocent people have something to do?

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

3)we dont wish to liberate them
we wish for them to stop attacking US with rockets and terrorist attacks
other then that they can do what ever the fuck they want

Well, seems like you want to exterminate all of it though. "Massacre" does not equal "stop".

[Deadly Delusion]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

1)the numbers in gaza are 1.4 million
the rest are in the west bank and have nothing to do with the fighting (they are the ones under the control of the palestinan authority and not hamas)
the west bank and gaza are two seperte areas (as in they have no land conecting them)

"Hamas (حماس Ḥamās, an acronym of حركة المقاومة الاسلامية Ḥarakat al-Muqāwamat al-Islāmiyyah, meaning "Islamic Resistance Movement") is a Palestinian Sunni Islamist paramilitary organization and political party which holds a majority of seats in the elected legislative council of the Palestinian National Authority."

2)if you mean the use of white phosphorose shells
then no only is it legal by international law
the international red cross made it clear that israel is making use of it in a perfectly legitimate way
and you need to learn what (chemical/biological) weapons mean
becouse they arent used in any way shape or form in this conflict
dont just write stuff

http://www.novinite.com/view_news.php?id=100408

"US rights group Human Rights Watch has charged Israel with illegal use of white phosphorous bombs in urban areas, which is strictly prohibited by international law."

"Israelis fired phosphorus shells at the town of Khouza, killing a woman and causing at least 60 people to suffer gas inhalation and burns."

White phosphorous bombs are considered chemical weapons by some organizations, although they aren't by the Chemical Weapons Convention.

3)we dont wish to liberate them
we wish for them to stop attacking US with rockets and terrorist attacks
other then that they can do what ever the fuck they want

Then attack Hamas, not the 1000 innocent people you've killed and many more you've injured.

[cors8]

Originally Posted by Deadly Delusion

Then attack Hamas, not the 1000 innocent people you've killed and many more you've injured.

Going to tell Hamas to follow some rules of war, put on readily identifiable uniforms and get out of densely populated civilian areas?

I don't agree with a lot of what Israel does but some of the absurd conditions people want to put on Israel is ridiculous.

Even when Israel does targeted assassinations, civilians still die. Why? It's because Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians all the time.

If there's a viable military solution to deal with people who don't care about their own civilians, I'd love to hear about it.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by cors8

Even when Israel does targeted assassinations, civilians still die. Why? It's because Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians all the time.

Hamas = wrong when does this.
Israel = still wrong, that while knowing that Hamas is shit when does this, still goes through it.

Conclusion : Two wrongs, do not make a right, especially when civilians are bring involved.

[Deadly Delusion]

Originally Posted by cors8

Going to tell Hamas to follow some rules of war, put on readily identifiable uniforms and get out of densely populated civilian areas?

I don't agree with a lot of what Israel does but some of the absurd conditions people want to put on Israel is ridiculous.

Even when Israel does targeted assassinations, civilians still die. Why? It's because Hamas surrounds themselves with civilians all the time.

If there's a viable military solution to deal with people who don't care about their own civilians, I'd love to hear about it.

They could start by not using fucking missiles and internationally banned weapons. Stick to ground assaults.

[ganbaru]

Originally Posted by Deadly Delusion

They could start by not using fucking missiles and internationally banned weapons. Stick to ground assaults.

With ground assault , you get more risk to kill bystanders on a gunfire and to get your own troops killed/captured.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

@incorrupts

2)there are over 1000 deaths in gaza right now (after over 2000 air strikes)
you dont know how many are civilians and how many are not
and you dont know how many deaths there would be if israel DIDNT try and keep the numbers down
but if you really think that the laser guided bombs are aimed to exterminate people on mass
then do you really think that we only hit one person with every two bombs ?

And? Does the number have to be increased or something? One innocent loss, is still a loss and a tragic one i might add.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

but you do know that there are almost one million israeli civilians in range of rocket attacks
you know that hamas has fired over 5000 rockets at them in the past 8 years
and you know that their goal is to kill as many people as they can with ever rocket
dont ask us to feel bad that their rockets cant be aimed well enough

And? The result is that you have fired a lot less, and you have killed a hell lot more. Is it a way to settle things? There is always another way. And starting to cause a massacre helps to NOTHING.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

and please answer me
what do you mean by taking hostages
taking who hostage ?
hamas people ?
innocent civilians ?
and for what use

Oh, it was more of a wishful thinking/joke if you will. I mean, i knew that back in the days, war "rules" had taking hostages {at least, some of them were saved in the end}, but apparently there in Hamas/Israel, it is immediate-target {or not}-killing. My bad.

[incorrupts]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

2)we warn people ahead of time before an air strikes (we drop leaflets and even call them on the phone
and IDF pilots cancel a strike if they see the area too populated
there is one palestinian death for every two bombs dropped, do you really think that this would happen if israel was out to massacre people

So, you saying, you originally strike for destroying their land and the green? But in the end, something happens and innocent people are killed? Is this what you are implying?

As for the last one, i do not know, the original intent or not, but the result is result. And the result is a LOT far away than your so-called "original" intents.

[wnmnkh]

The main problem is that none of sides is getting better despite fighting.

This brings one inconvenient fact that Israel is heavily depended on U.S.A

Now the real question is whether U.S.A will support Israel all the time, forever?



Oh, about Hamas and so called terrists and their attacks on people...... I was in my home country during Christmas vacation, and argued with some folks about this issue.

They : Hey, they are terrists, that's bad.
Me : So you are willing to call our country's founders terrists?

So, in order to gain independence, the founders of my nation did bomb-killing, training militants and assissinations. In other words, they were terrists.

Now 60 years later both my country and the former conquering country do not describe them as 'terrists'. We call them 'founders'.

History is always written by winners, you know.


So blade, I am sorry to hear that your people are getting hurt by rockets from terrists, but I must say that's what you should expected, and are deserved.

You said "that land was not belong to anyone" But that's only in 'law' or 'rule'. We are talking about 'reality' here.

The reality is that there were people who lived there. You guys came from nowhere and kicked them out. Just like invaders came to my nation about 100 years ago and took the nation as theirs.

Well, if someone just come in and try to pull me out of my house, claiming "this house is MINE!", then I would fight.

So they do.

Seriously, what do you expect if you just kick people from their houses, while killing some of them. Did you expect they would give you food, money and/or love?

No! They will give you a deadly rockets which will explode and kill you.


The fight won't stop until one of these happens.


1.) You Israelis are defeated by Palestinians and meet horrible death.
2.) You Israelis completely get rid of Palestinians, just put them out of existence.
3.) You Israelis give up the land and escape from there.
4.) You Israelis and Palestinians try to negiociate and let Palestinians form a fully-capable country.

See, you can't push Palestrinians from the land since it was.... ah their homes. They won't.
The best solution for Israelis (note. NOT for Palestinians) are no.2 and no.4

No.1 and No.3 are best for Palestrinians, but unacceptable to Israelis.

No.4 would not happen unless U.S.A gets much weaker (won't happen anytime soon) or gets destroyed.

Oh, we got the answer.

[Vexx]

and why are the Palestinian media the only "camera men in Gaza"? Who set that rule? (I know the answer...).

Lack of independent reporting makes it harder to assess the situation accurately .... just as it did in Tibet or other locations with complex issues. The propaganda from both sides has to be weighed by their falling credibility.

[Vexx]

I hate to say this but you're becoming a forum poster child for why the world is having a credibility problem with Israel.... and yes, I watched the video.
Hamas already has no credibility with the Western world, but Israel's government isn't too far behind...

Are you trying to actually convince people that Israel is taking the best course for its own self-interest? Or are you just trying to defend that whatever Israel does is infallible?

[wnmnkh]

No blade, I am not intending to argue with you about 'who stole' thingy, since I know how the discussion would end anyway.

My point is that you guys need to stop complaining about getting rocket/suicide bombed. I mean, you guys are getting rocket bombed because since you guys claim that land as yours (let's put who's right to have land thingy aside), and you guys are getting what you should have been expected and are deserved.

It is up to U.S.A -NOT you Israelis- to solve this problem, by either allow Israel to do genocide to kill Palestinianes or refuse to give any further money and weapons to let Israel die.

As I said, in current state, No.2 is only viable answer for us unless there is a big change in U.S.A, and I doubt about the change.




By the way, Gaza is currently warzone now, and civilians should not be allowed to enter there except U.N representatives.

[0utf0xZer0]

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

we bomb either activists, high ranking hamas people, weapon stores, or places where they are firing from (which includes schools, hospitals and even mosque)
why would we waste bombs on fields of green (bombs cost money)

I love how when I say that 32 police station bombings and the IDF's own statements indicate that the IDF is targetting what might serve a military purpose for Hamas rather than what does, you say that's a legitimate strategy - yet a couple post later you're trying to whitewash the bombings by trying to claim all these targets do have military value.

That said, I'm actually starting to find you flip flopping on this a bit tiresome. And just in case you're wondering, I didn't find your last round of "hey, it's justified because we're fighting Hamas" very convincing either.

Originally Posted by bladeofdarkness

5)ypu keep complaining about israel's policy not wining the hearts and minds of the palestinian people
and you keep saying that if israel changes certain aspacts in its conduct then it would be better liked by them
this is exactly the kind of logic that works in the west, the logic that says that "people everywhere are ultimately only people, and all people just want peace"
this isnt the way things work in the middle east
the facts are that the palesitnians will forever view the jews as those who stole THEIR land (the UN resolution rdisagrees)
and as long as they feel that they can get their land back by force, they would keep trying
we dont need them to come and like us (they never will)
we just need them to give up

Well, right off the bat I'd like to point out that the most recent Palestinian opinion polls I have access to (from June 2008) show Fatah leading Hamas by 17 freaking percent in Gaza opinion polls. So the idea that this operation is needed to make Palestinians stop supporting Hamas is ridiculous.
Second, while I think most Palestinians would prefer you pack up and leave, I believe the vast majority are willing to settle for less. The driving force behind the insurgency is lack of trust - the Palestinians don't trust Israel to give them anything without being threatened. "Deterrence" doesn't deal with the trust issue at all, so I see no reason why it will convince them to lay down arms.
There is, of course, a hardcore "fuck the Jews" element in the Palestinian population, but I think they care even less about "deterrence". The only way to deal with them will be to get the Palestinian population to marginalize them.

[Vexx]

I invite people to read this analysis:
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/david-..._b_158486.html

It is an interesting exposition on the underlying philosophy that leads the actions we witness and the overall strategic consequences.

[Vexx]

In a few weeks, a lot of people who were not legitimate targets will have buried their dead and be dealing with destroyed families, lives, livelihoods - and little or no way to cope with it.

whee...


(and then... he ran away. So much for listening to a variety of viewpoints.)