Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[monir]

Originally Posted by Makender

Sayaka is such a bitch taking out all her despair on Madoka like that. So what if she's doing nothing, its not like its her fault you're a soul inside of stone. I hate Sayaka more and more each new episode.

To me it seems it's Madoka who deserves all the rotten tomatoes in the last couple of episodes including this one. Sayaka was just the victim of her naiveté (her do-good attitude) who couldn't, in the end, cope with the contradictory nature of good and evil.

[Makender]

Originally Posted by monir

To me it seems it's Madoka who deserves all the rotten tomatoes in the last couple of episodes including this one. Sayaka was just the victim of her naiveté (her do-good attitude) who couldn't, in the end, cope with the contradictory nature of good and evil.

Madoka doing nothing to save her own skin isn't admirable, but it also isn't blameworthy. Sayaka on the other hand entered into the contract, discovered she's a soul stuck in a stone, copes with it badly like it really makes all that much of difference (I mean really, you knew that you were different and were sentenced to fight witches the rest of your life, what difference does this make), and then slaps Madoka in the face with the guilt trip because she isn't doing anything to "help" when she's right there beside you trying to support you. Show a little understanding and gratitude? Meh, then there wouldn't be a plot driver to send Sayaka over the edge.

[ChronoReverse]

And furthermore, asking your friend to get into the pit with you to get you out is ridiculous.

Not to mention, Madoka was one syllable away from diving in, sacrificing herself, to save Sayaka.

[Fishbait]

Originally Posted by monir

To me it seems it's Madoka who deserves all the rotten tomatoes in the last couple of episodes including this one. Sayaka was just the victim of her naiveté (her do-good attitude) who couldn't, in the end, cope with the contradictory nature of good and evil.

Completely disagreed.

Sayaka has been incredibly unreasonable in the last few episodes.

Just take a look what happened now.

She thought Mami and her were the only selfless magical girls ever, and that people like Homura and Kyouko were selfish bitches..........oh wait, WRONG, Homura flat out admits to her that she's doing this for Madoka and what does Sayaka say?

Nothing. She has no answer when reality mercilessly slaps her on the face. She's not a special selfless person like she thought she was.

She could have changed right there and picked up the grief seed....but once again, NOPE she decides to be stubborn and drown in her own despair

[creb]

OMG. Fantastic episode. It appears Sayaka has turned into a witch, and the first person we can blame is Kyoko for stopping Homura as she was about to kill Sayaka. Of course, that'd be petty to blame Kyoko, as we could come up with a million reasons why Sayaka has gone witch, but damn. Poor Kyoko. She really did want to help Sayaka. Why do I get the feeling Witch-Sayaka is going to kill Kyoko. :/

Kyuube finally showing his colors, and it was also nice to see Homura open up more. It was good to get clarification that there's no point in actually killing Kyuube once he had his eyes on Madoka. It bugged me to no end the amount of people who kept saying Homura was some evil psycho with some master plan because she was letting Kyuube live. This should settle that talk.

I wanted to reach through my monitor and slap Madoka there as she almost made her contract. Homura's words were spot on, and the worst part of it all is that Madoka obviously still did NOT ACTUALLY HEAR THEM as she ran away. How is it so hard to understand Madoka? Look at your happy family! What do you think is going to happen if you contract! Poor Homura.

So, Incubator. While we don't have the full story yet, I think it's safe to say part of Kyuube's evil master diabolical plan is to make witches. For what purpose...well, I'm sure we'll see.

Lastly, I have to wonder about Hitomi and Kamijo. We never actually hear what they say to each other. How amusing would it be if Hitomi was actually telling Kamijo that Sayaka is in love with him. :/

Anyways, fantastic episode. I'm still not sure what the relationship between Homura and Madoka is, but they must have been very close in Homura's timeline. Can't freakin' wait till next week!

[zato_1one]

When Homura discussed about Walpergist Night with Kyoko. Many witches in that scene are portrayed as the silhouette of normal girl. I believe that the previous witches which didn't have body like that might be just a witch that born from a familiar. In other word, the witch that born directly from Mahou Shoujo should be more powerful. This is the real deal. I really can't wait for this Walpergist Night festival! ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

[creb]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

When Homura discussed about Walpergist Night with Kyoko. Many witches in that scene are portrayed as the silhouette of normal girl. I believe that the previous witches which didn't have body like that might be just a witch that born from a familiar. In other word, the witch that born directly from Mahou Shoujo should be more powerful. This is the real deal. I really can't wait for this Walpergist Night festival! ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

Btw, I'm really, really curious where in the heck they were when discussing their strategy for Walpergist Night. That sure didn't seem like the real world. It almost seemed like the type of space a witch makes.

[Otani-kun]

So the big witch from episode 1 turns out to be Sayaka after all.

And I suppose Madoka's going to sacrifice herself to make everything better despite Homura's attempts not to let her go through with it. ;<

[Makender]

And I love how Sayaka is lecturing that dude on the train. His girl cares about him and is doing all she can to make him happy? You don't know a damn thing about his life and his relationships. And its really laughable because its like an exact parallel to how Sayaka is treating Madoka.

[Decagon]

Rewatching it, I think QB uses shadows or at least pitch darkness to travel. Notice the sound of a light going out when he appears after that Homura and Madoka moment.

[Fishbait]

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

So the big witch from episode 1 turns out to be Sayaka after all.

Don't know that yet.

Walpurgis Night is still supposedly two weeks away and the Episode 1 Witch was specifically labeled as Walpurgis Night on Homura's walls.

So....

How's Sayaka going to survive 2 more weeks? Kyouko's right there and Homura's probably coming too.

[hoarfrost]

Originally Posted by Decagon

Rewatching it, I think QB uses shadows or at least pitch darkness to travel. Notice the sound of a light going out when he appears after that Homura and Madoka moment.

Holy Shit. If you turned out to be right and Kyubey only ever traveled in shadows the entire series, that would be pretty awesome foreshadowing on Shin-bochi's part.

[MeoTwister5]

Well that was a kick in the nuts wasn't it? My core theory that witches come from corrupted MGs and that QB was playing both sides has pretty much been confirmed. The idea of him being the master puppeteer is still in the air, but this should be enough for Madoka to break all ties with him.

I now have radically different answers to the core debate issues I raised previously.

1. Are the (soon to be wrecked?) lives of a few girls worth the potential of saving the lives of countless others?

2. Are QBs methods justifiable given two diametrically opposing issues of a) The Contract formation has the capacity to save the lives of others; and yet b) his methods are morally and ethically questionable by human standards.

3. Who possesses the higher degree of culpability for the fucked up shit the MGs have gotten themselves into? a) The MGs for having a hand in screwing up their lives being directly responsible for their actions and eventual fates for themselves and others; or b) QB for what could be argued is his degree of deceit and amorality in dealing with the girls and the power he has given them; or maybe even c) A mixture of both, therefore no single entity receives all the blame.

4. Is the "good" or "bad" things of being an MG a) Intrinsically tied to the wish and its result; or b) More a result of what the MGs do with their new found power?

5. Regarding QB and morality, the current arguments are a) QBs amorality makes is difficult to use objective standards to judge him; or b) The question of his morality is irrelevant because he must be judged by the standards at large regardless of what he believes in.

1. Not any more. It's clear that saving people's lives were NEVER the intention. Therefore the lives of a few girls for everyone else cannot be justified when said girls would be the source of said conflict. Choice b.

2. No more justifications here. Again, saving lives was NEVER the intention. QBs actions were purposeful for his own ends by destroying others under the guise of good intentions. That's clear deceit right there. The gray area is lost. Choice b.

3. The gray area still exists. This episode makes it clear as well that the MGs fall are partly due to their (impaired) decision making. However QBs degree of culpability still exists and has drastically increased, but MGs still had a hand in their demise, so blame is still shared but QB owns majority of said blame. Choice c

4. One can presume that everything QB does if for the bad result, so therefore choice a is valid insofar as the wish itself is a loaded condition, however I still see no direct incorrigible proof that it is intrinsic, so I still hang on to choice b.

5. Since he's creating victims out of people, the standards of society and its victims are the standards to be upheld and enforced on him at this point, therefore his morals should be rendered irrelevant, so my clear choice is choice b. He is now subject to a clear moral standard.

So yeah, I'm leaving ethical neutrality. No way anymore to even justify QB at this point. I think everyone's now in the evil camp.

[karuroso]

Originally Posted by Mentar

Maa, it's not unlikely at all. I've had the gut feeling for a long time that Homura was pulling a Chikane (reference: Kannazuki no Miko) on Madoka. And if I got this ep right in that Homura is from a different timeline, I suspect that a major part of the Bitter in "Bittersweet Ending" will be that they will be ripped apart again, after being reunited.

So - yes, I'd expect an important yuri component to be developed between Homura and Madoka.

OMG! =D awesome you noticed this, at first glance i have to confess i didn't thought that, but now that you mentioned this i can't help but hope for this to actually happen.

[Makender]

As for the realm that Kyoko and Homura were chilling in discussing Walpurgisnacht, its certainly not unfeasibly to conjecture that MGs can create their own space much like a witch considering the connection we now know the two share. The witch's personal realm is just a twisted by despair/insanity MG personal realm.

[Reckoner]

Just watched the episode and as expected, people are going to either proclaim just how "right" they were in predicting the outcome, and other people are bitter that the story is going in a "predictable" manner.

Originally Posted by Mentar

And so far he's right on track. So I suggest we do the very same we've done up to now, which is collecting clues, trying to keep a close eye on the character motivations, and things will turn out fine. THIS in my eyes is GOOD storytelling: Which has enough surprises but manages to keep the story coherent WITHOUT stupid turns with high shock value but little sense.

I prefer when you post like this rather than your usual haughty attitude. Anyhow, I fully agree with you. This is what I would call proper storytelling. It doesn't need to rely on extreme twists and turns, and can fully entertain by simply trying to engage the audience.

I find it silly that Madoka is now being accused of being too predictable after people tried to argue for ambiguity. It can't go both ways. In my mind, I already saw Kyube as amoral, and possibily more sinister. I thought he had a plot behind him, but I simply acknowledged there was room for more interpretations as things stood up to that point. With this we can pretty much close the debate.

Also:

Originally Posted by totoum

A lot of fan theories being confirmed in episode 8 is a whole lot different from them coming true in the last episode,more questions arise from the answers and new speculation will arise.

Listen to this man! This is only episode 8! This wasn't a an of the TV series revelation. There are still more questions and answers to be had.

Originally Posted by Sheba

I am of those who enjoyed the show in a more casual way. Back then, when the show was announced, I jumped on the boat by hoping that it will be NOT another Nanoha, as I am one of those who 1. have grown frustrated with Strikers (I litterally had to FORCE MYSELF to watch the eight last episodes, and even then, it took me two months because it was such a drag) 2. Rolled my eyes in disgust over the mechanization of the show to the expense of what appeared magical.

I did not even recall who was Gen. So, I started watching the thing along with friends in IRC. And episode three came along, and oh boy, I was surprised and my jaw dropped when someone reminded me who Gen was.

Since then the ride had been fun for me, so was discussing the references and speculations with panzerfan and other folks in IRC.

I agree wholeheartedly with you. Sure if I knew Gen was working on this like many people here I could've already predicted that the show was going to be a deconstruction, and the sorts of plot threads that Gen usually likes to throw at his audience, but because I didn't know that, it came as a big surprise to me like it did for you.

[FlareKnight]

Originally Posted by monir

To me it seems it's Madoka who deserves all the rotten tomatoes in the last couple of episodes including this one. Sayaka was just the victim of her naiveté (her do-good attitude) who couldn't, in the end, cope with the contradictory nature of good and evil.

Yeah will agree with you there. Just couldn't take the harshness of it. Plus probably didn't help that initially you had Kyoko using people to farm witches and Homura who clearly had numerous ulterior motives and so couldn't be trusted. While blowing up at her wasn't good, it's no surprise to get frustrated with people when things are going bad. Plus someone like Madoka who cares, but isn't actually taking any action is a frustrating kind of person.

I think some of the problems really do come from Homura. The time travel thing is pretty much confirmed. She knew so much from the very beginning, but didn't say anything and frankly made herself hard to trust with her attitude. Her focus from the very beginning was 100% on Madoka. But for someone who wanted to stop her from making a wish she did a poor job of it. Told her to give up hope on her friends, only took action when she absolutely had to, tried to kill Kyube when Madoka was close, and the whole shooting Kyube with a gun didn't help. If she had just done things better they might have avoided things getting this bad. Now Madoka is pretty close to making a wish and pretty much no one trusts her.

[Marisa Kirisame]

10/10, why is it not Thursday yet?

[Makender]

You know, with the whole time travel thing basically confirmed I wonder who contracted with Homura to make that wish. Seems counterintuitive that QB would do it in spite of how greedy he may be.

[herbert]

Originally Posted by zato_1one

When Homura discussed about Walpergist Night with Kyoko. Many witches in that scene are portrayed as the silhouette of normal girl. I believe that the previous witches which didn't have body like that might be just a witch that born from a familiar. In other word, the witch that born directly from Mahou Shoujo should be more powerful. This is the real deal. I really can't wait for this Walpergist Night festival! ／人◕ ‿‿ ◕人＼

Perhaps Charlotte is the only magical-girl-turned-into-witch so far, which may explain Homura considers her special.

Originally Posted by Otani-kun

So the big witch from episode 1 turns out to be Sayaka after all.

Either that big witch is a cannon-fodder or she is not Sayaka. When discussing Walpurgis Night, Homura draws a circle on the map and tells Kyoko that is a rough range the Night may take place. Kyoko wonders where Homura gets the info. Homura answers that is a statistical conclusion. If Homura has experienced so many times to get a decent sample size, she would know Sayaka is a possible threat.