So acting cold to everyone around you, being totally mysterious and cryptic and generally untrustworthy is a good method?
Well, it's easy to judge when you don't know the whole story, isn't it? I'd wait until we get more backstory for her, maybe her actions would make more sense than with the incomplete information we have at this point.
So acting cold to everyone around you, being totally mysterious and cryptic and generally untrustworthy is a good method?
Again, don't forget that she doesn't want to have any hand in what causes Madoka to become a magical girl. So yes, I would say that being cold and cryptic is a great way to make sure someone doesn't become friends with you, which is one of her goals.
Really, the only problem is her lack of honesty. When she sees Madoka holding Kyubei, she needs to tell her that it's dangerous and feeds on the hearts of girls even if Madoka doesn't believe her at the time. She needs to give the information that needs to be given at the proper time.
So acting cold to everyone around you, being totally mysterious and cryptic and generally untrustworthy is a good method?
Sorry, I should have said "not good" instead of "not good enough". Since you said that she is trying which I agree with, her methods are not entirely bad either though. At least since they aren't supposed to be. She (imo) shouldn't be blamed for the way she turned to be. It's understandable that because of her attitude and such that her methods become equally ineffective, but it's also not nice (and not smart) of the others to distrust her without any second thoughts that she might not be this bad after all.
Sorry, I should have said "not good" instead of "not good enough". Since you said that she is trying which I agree with, her methods are not entirely bad either though. At least since they aren't supposed to be. She (imo) shouldn't be blamed for the way she turned to be. It's understandable that because of her attitude and such that her methods become equally ineffective, but it's also not nice (and not smart) of the others to distrust her without any second thoughts that she might not be this bad after all.
Well, this is a pretty dark profession. If it walks like a duck, quacks like a duck, it's more than likely a duck.
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Again, don't forget that she doesn't want to have any hand in what causes Madoka to become a magical girl. So yes, I would say that being cold and cryptic is a great way to make sure someone doesn't become friends with you, which is one of her goals.
Really, the only problem is her lack of honesty. When she sees Madoka holding Kyubei, she needs to tell her that it's dangerous and feeds on the hearts of girls even if Madoka doesn't believe her at the time. She needs to give the information that needs to be given at the proper time.
Well, yes that's true, but still. Not being friendly is different from that overly cryptic air she puts on. The way she acts, she just screams 'Don't trust me!'
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Man, Homura...what a pathetic, disgusting excuse for a person she is.
Well, wow! Obviously you know the backstory of Homura already, for being able to make calls like that. How about you enlighten us first what she did exactly, and for which reasons?
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I understand why she took the course she did. She was obviously close to Madoka in some sense in her timeline--not willing to jump on lovers quite yet--and thus understands that Madoka is most likely to martyr herself for the sake of others.
I think there's a critical piece missing here. Why would Homura jump into a _different_ timeline if a _different_ Madoka does something? And if it's truly a _different_ Madoka, why would she seem to remember having been with Homura?
Why it might be a good idea to stop her from contracting should be painfully obvious after watching this episode, I'd have thought...
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Homura doesn't want to be one of the people Madoka feels like she she has to "save" and unduly influence her to become a magical girl. This means she purposely cultivates a distant air so that Madoka won't become close to her and, hopefully, won't care if something happens to her.
Seems very unconvincing to me. This is not about playing hard-to-get. She said she's seen countless MGs die, and so far ALL of her negative predictions have come to pass. And after Madoka had left and QB talked to her, she recovered her usual control, reapplying the mask that she lost during her emotional outburst.
In case you missed it, Homura isn't playing "don't mind me" games. She's been trying the hardest to keep Madoka from contracting. Why?
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Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love.
Excuse me, but this is pure BS. If Madoka and Sayaka had heeded Homura's warnings, none of them would have gotten into trouble. If anything, she's trying the best to limit the losses to Madoka.
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You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her?
Because it is obvious to pretty much every reasonable being that Sayaka was going to die - in fact she was SEEKING death. She tried to convince Sayaka to live and provided the means to do so (grief seed). She's been saving Sayaka's ass three times before. So what would have YOU done in her position, hm?
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Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself?
What is making the people vanish out of Madoka's life are people like you who obviously advocate contracting with QB. You're just even more absurd because you do that even after learning the truth - really amazing.
I'll go out on a limb to say that I believe that your second allegation - that Homura is only selfish - is going to look particularly hilarious when we learn about Homura's backstory. I believe (not proven of course) that Homura was the one who removed Madoka from being a MG which she was in the past. That she was pulling a Chikane and took over this sh*t job in order to save Madoka from the grinder. Then again, maybe I'm wrong. I'd like to know more about Homura before making a final call on her.
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You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.
Not sure if you forgot already... who or what caused the corpses again? Who saved people from becoming corpses? And what exactly would you want her to do?
Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her? Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself? You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.
Madoka can make new friends. Family is irreplaceable. So if by protecting Madoka, Madoka's family stays safe then Homura is doing a good job.
When Madoka becomes a magical girl, it's prob a short trip to becoming a witch anyways. Cubae will make short work of her.
Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her? Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself? You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.
You can't say that Homura doesn't care about other people dying when she already saved Sayaka twice in the past. It's true she only cares about Madoka, but it's not like she's a total psycho ready to kill anybody causing anguish to her beloved.
Homura even tried to help Sayaka again in this episode. However, Sayaka refused her help and made it clear she wouldn't stop walking this self-destructive path. By refusing Homura's help, Sayaka pretty much signed her own death warrant. Rather than letting her turn into a witch (which could be argued is even worse than dying) and cause further grief to Madoka, Homura thought she'd do Sayaka a service and kill her on the spot.
Yes, this was a cold, ruthless decision. But maybe it was the right one. We'll see in the next episode. I have the feeling turning into a witch entails a fate way worse than death.
So acting cold to everyone around you, being totally mysterious and cryptic and generally untrustworthy is a good method?
Oooh, acting cold. Hidoi neh, what a meanie! And being mysterious and cryptic! I'm sure she's doing that in order to look cool, or any other selfish reason.
Generally untrustworthy however really made me laugh. She's the only girl who actually not only made sure not to make promises she couldn't keep, even after declining she STILL tried her hardest to help. She saved Madoka two times, Sayaka three times, and we know that she was working behind the scenes to keep Kyoko out of Sayaka's fur. So far, every warning of her has proven to be correct. But she's the untrustworthy one?
Seriously, sometimes I wonder what's driving people...
lol @ Kyubei getting shot.
episode 8 confirmed what alot of people had a feeling of "another time-line" thing.
For some reason I think Homura is actually that long green-haired friend of theirs from another time-line, and she was the one that became the magical girl and Madoka sacrificed herself for her.
The last line of Kyubei was a good reveal though, and actually makes sense. Magical Girl hunt witches and afterwards use the witche's 'seed' to restore their energy, so they're practically the same being.
See that's kind of interesting. QB has his own plans of course, and those may ultimately be evil, but despite things he's not really playing the role of bad guy. His offer still to this point seems genuine, he grants any wish, at the cost of your own life where you may face death or worse. He hasn't really sugar coated it, and I can see why he would think that some of the details of the contract aren't really all that important (you've already given yourself up for your wish). Fighting witches would be easier to accept if you weren't told the full truth. Sayaka probably would still have made the decision even if she knew everything she does now anyways, and Madoka was about to as well.
Actually, when you think about it, he's done things to ensure their safety, and stuff that doesn't seem entirely benefiting of his role, like warning Madoka and Kyoko of Sayaka's decent. It's worth mentioning that while he hasn't given anyone the full truth to anyone, he has never directly lied about anything.
See that's kind of interesting. QB has his own plans of course, and those may ultimately be evil, but despite things he's not really playing the role of bad guy.
You sure that you have watched episode 8? In which we learn that QB is the "Incubator"? That his task is to incubate girls who then turn into witches? That he's chuckling how fitting it is to call the girls "Mahou Shoujos" since they will become "Witches" later? (You can't write "Witch" in kanji without "Mahou Shoujo")
He's not helping anyone fight against witches, he is CREATING witches. That is his TASK.
So in other words, Madoka is to Sayaka as Sayaka was to Kamijo. The analogy fits remarkably well.
Sayaka constantly visited with Kamijo, trying to cheer him up, doing whatever she could that she thought would make him feel better, despite the fact that for all practical purposes her presence there was completely useless, if not actively detrimental. Pretty much exactly the same thing as how Madoka has been trying to support Sayaka.
Kamijo's reaction to Sayaka's presence when he hit rock bottom (being told his hand could never be fixed) was pretty much the same as Sayaka's reaction to Madoka's presence -- complete rejection (though Sayaka added the extra "why don't you join me?" dig). Both regretted saying what they did, but at the same time, their frustrations just hit a breaking point. Note that I'm not saying that they didn't say their true feelings. Those *were* their true feelings at the time they were spoken, just not their *only* true feelings.
Well noted. For Sayaka though, it can be argued that she would have not think so badly of Madoka if Kyubey had not made that remark about the latter's HUGE potential. Of course, she would still resent the fact that despite going through all this mess together since that day in the basment(?), it is just her alone that had stepped into this mahou shoujo quicksand. At her then state of mind, it's not hard for her resentment (and perhaps, some influence from her tainted Soul Gem) to twist her perception of Madoka, to the delusion that her friend is in fact deliberately holding off her decision to join her as a fellow mahou shoujo and could even be secretly laughing behind her back for her foolish choice. It's all wrong of course, since from what we've seen, Madoka is certainly not such a person. But when you're tired, frustrated, frightened and in despair, even the wildest suggestions may sound believable.
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Haha! That was my thought exactly! After all the speculation of Homura being Madoka (which never really made sense to me), what if it was Sayaka? Still, that pretty much falls flat on its face when you consider that Homura never really expended any effort to save Sayaka herself.
I must humbly admit that this is one of the holes in this theory .
If I am to defend it, there seem to be two possible explanations that I can offer:
1) When Sayaka is purged of her Witchiness and reborn as Homura (her original body perhaps disintegrated after she Witchified or simply destroyed in the blast that came with her Witchification), the prominent thought that comes with her rebirth is to "stop Madoka from making a contract with Kyubey". If her mind follows this literally, it could blind her to the other possibilities that would lead to Madoka making a contract with Kyubey, like her old self becoming a mahou shoujo and then a Witch, and ending up pushing Madoka into making a contract to save her.
2) Sayaka|Homura has become utterly disappointed and disgusted with herself. It was, according to this theory, her fault that led to Madoka becoming a mahou shoujo in the first place, and she might probably even have considered the idea of killing her old self to prevent her Witchification from becoming a bait that Kyubey could tempt Madoka with. The only problem with this course of action is that her death will without a doubt cause much pain to Madoka, something she is reluctant to inflict on her friend (whether the thought of a short-term pain is better than long-term suffering has crossed her mind is yet another speculation). So she tries the next best course of action: try to kill Kyubey. Alas, the little scoundrel is a pal of Aozaki Touko and has access to her bag of tricks. So with that option rendered moot, she is left with trying to dissuade Madoka with cryptic hints and warnings. Unfortunately her first performance before both Madoka AND her old self turned out bad, her distaste for her old self resulting to her cold interactions (very few of these though, if you noticed. It's almost as if Homura was avoiding Sayaka and tried to spend as much time with Madoka as she could), and she ended up incurring the mistrust of her old self and thus shooting herself in the foot, by contributing to the events that once again, leads to her Witchification (whether this time, the process took the same path as that which had led to her original Witchification is something we don't know).
Personally, possibility 2 sounds more plausible to me. Though like everything else I have and am about to post, I can seen the holes beaming at me already
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On another note: Seems we're given a pretty good idea of how Homura survives without being so dependant on grief seeds. If magic causes corruption, she uses as little magic as possible, supplementing her hax time-stop powers with mundane weapons (bombs, grenades, guns) that she can apparently hide in her shield (some sort of pocket-space). Surprisingly effective.
Hmm, possible. Though if her pocket dimension requires magic to maintain it, she would probably be the one with the most magic output instead
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Originally Posted by PhoenixFlare
Yup, I saw the house for just a second and grinned. It is definitely Eiri's shop from Le Portrait de Petit Cossette.
I know you of all people will definitely notice
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It's not impossible, but there is one immediate counterargument to the thought.
If Homura is post-Walpurgisnacht Sayaka, that would mean that she was wished out of a Puella Magi by Madoka (as in turning fully back to human). But, by reappearing in this timeline, that would mean that she contracted Kyubey (again?) to stop Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi, to which the incident with the original!Sayaka happened again, and Madoka will be thrown into making the choice again. Again (repeated too many times in this paragraph alone!), I won't say it's impossible, but CLAMP is more likely to make a circular timeline thing than SHAFT, I'd think.
My line of thought goes like this:
Sayaka is released from her Witch state but now in a new body as her old one is no longer capable of supporting her, especially since she is no longer a mahou shoujo and thus can no longer enjoy its special "benefits" with regards to her body.
Oh, and Kyubey is still up, about, and probably mocking her as Madoka spirals out of control and into darkness.
New!Sayaka (a tv series?) makes a new contract with Kyubey to go back in time and prevent Madoka from forming the contract. Kyubeyy agrees, surprisingly, but probably because he is confident of her plans falling apart.
Oh, and though he does grant her the ability to leap through time, the rascal makes it in the way that she has no control when she's jumping into next (like Tsubasa's Mokona) and she ends up making more jumps than she needs. This may explain her apparent experiences with other mahou shoujo, and why she's so jaded now (well, not that she's jaded enough to begin with anyway...)
Sayaka|Homura finally makes it back to her own time, sets up shop and the plan to stalk stop Madoka from becoming a mahou shoujo begins.
That's the basic outline. However, since this time, there is a new player, which is herself (or maybe even two, since Kyouko might have also been brought in as a backup against her, and may have not been here in the original "script" where she as Akemi Homura does not exist), things turn out to be different. Perhaps, a lot more different than we would have imagined. Maybe her original contract was made after Mami was eaten by Charlotte and Sayaka became a mahou shoujo to protect Madoka (and herself).
Now that was really longwinded and roundabout (common of me though ), but what I want to say is that in the original timeline, Akemi Homura doesn't exist and the run of events is very likely to be very different (for example, nobody to try and kill her like what Homura did in this episode). If she's successful, then hooray! the mess is clear and her work is done (whether she'll just vanish at that point is yet another piece of speculah). If not, then she'll just have to keep jumping and jumping until she hits the original timeline again and try all over once more.
It's like Archer, just that Archer is jumping in and out to find and kill his old self, while Sayaka|Homura is trying to stop her best friend from sacrificing herself for her (though she comes very close to Archerism when she realises that killing Sayaka now might be another way out too.....)
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An observation on Episode 8:
Spoiler for Kyubey:
This is a sort of dichotomy I've seen for Kyubey that would probably not be shared by many, but I'll put it up just for discussion anyway.
While Episode 8 does reveal his leanings as evil, I still have a suspicion that is what SHAFT would've wanted us to believe. That is to say, the animations, background, foreshadowing, etc. were manipulated to make us believe that Kyubey is the mastermind behind all the suffering for Puella Magi.
But, to me, Kyubey is just like an observer, sort of like a God made into a ... weird, catish/doggish/something image. He tries to understand humans in his ways, making things happen and see how their reactions would be. He grants their wish, observe them, reveal the truth about the price of his miracle, and observe further. And he has a particular interest in Madoka for his own reason.
Part of it, I believe, is because he is interested in what Madoka's wish would be. While others' have been more predictable (Sayaka for Kamijo, Kyoko for her father, and Mami for herself), Madoka has been a really weak person throughout, but she has been hesitant/stopped from making her wish and form a contract with him. Madoka has nothing particularly more interesting than the other Puella Magi (except for her awesome mom ), so why has she not fallen to the temptation as easily like the others? This makes her interesting to him.
Why did I say Kyubey is not evil? Well, Kyubey as an Incubator would mean that his main task is to make Witches, that are incidentally borne from fallen Puella Magi. Puella Magi, I assume, will all eventually enter a state of despair (from loneliness, or just like what Sayaka experienced) and become Witches (hence, his name as Incubator as called by Homura - by waiting for the ripe time to reap what he's sown). However, his method of doing this "evil" has been extremely circular: he has to get Puella Magi to kill Witches for their Grief Seeds which he in turn consumes, but Witches also come from Puella Magi.
Why could he not directly consume their souls when they form the contract? I recall someone saying that the devil needs to tempt their victim's soul and condemn it to hell, but shouldn't a contract with a devil immediately taint the soul? Sure, using magic seems to be "tainting" it, but recall that it can also be purified by using a Grief Seed (apparently the soul of a fallen Puella Magi). Homura has not commented on this, so it appears that cleansing part is genuine. Why would Kyubey, given his seemingly evil plan, want to create an escape route for his ensnared victim to escape from his grasp? It could be for the thrill of the hunt/bidding his time like his namesake, I suppose, but if your Puella Magi never falls into a Witch were all emotionally strong, then you will have something to worry about reworking your plan.
Also, despite his immortality, Kyubey appears to have no offensive power. He could be hurt (by Homura in Episode 1), but he appears to be unable to return the favor. He found out Homura was interfering with his plans, but he didn't seem ... angry at all. In fact, he was being ... cattish. Again, possible loftiness on his part, but highly doubtful.
Lastly, the absolute flaw in his "evil" plan is that in granting an irreversible miracle, he makes himself and the plan extremely vulnerable. With Madoka's wish at the fulcrum and the possible knowledge Homura could warn her of Kyubey's diabolical plan, he stands the risky chance of losing the field if Madoka wishes to return everything to normal. His true objective may be Madoka for all we know, but Madoka's wish could circumvent his entire plan (of course, I would write it as a wish that nullifies all Puella Magi-making process, therefore Madoka would be spared from the curse; Urobochi could write it as the last wish and Madoka is the only Puella Magi Kyubey would consume).
Still, I suppose if my speculation of Kyubey as an observer is wrong, Kyubey could be happy with Madoka alone, and that's a probable closure to the series as foreshadowed in the ED.
I feel that there are better ways to test and taste humanity than turning young girls into eldritch abominations @_@
Like offering great power to world leaders, spark off a world war and then go amongst the masses to mess them up some more >_>
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Originally Posted by FlavorOfLife
The immediate problem i can see with this is why would Homura not be aware of Sayaka's vulnerability. She made the link that Sayaka would be used to pull Madoka down very quickly after Sayaka's transformation. If she was Sayaka, she should have known her own personality, her own background, etc which would have allowed her to guess what would happen much earlier
Point taken. I would suggest that between choosing Madoka and her old self, Sayaka|Homura chose to approach Madoka first, since she is after all the main objective. It's possible that she had also planned to approach her old self and warn her as well, but the bad impression she left after her "underground debut" thwarted her plan. Now, knowing her own self all too well, she knows that explanations to her old self would fall to deaf ears, so she once again decides to focus on Madoka, hoping to at least dissuade her from making a bad move. Her repeated advice about abandoning Sayaka may also be an attempt to cut off the possibility of Madoka making a contract for her sake.
And that's my share of speculah for today. Hopefully it won't send anyone jumping off buildings screaming after they read this
lol @ Kyubei getting shot.
episode 8 confirmed what alot of people had a feeling of "another time-line" thing.
For some reason I think Homura is actually that long green-haired friend of theirs from another time-line, and she was the one that became the magical girl and Madoka sacrificed herself for her.
The last line of Kyubei was a good reveal though, and actually makes sense. Magical Girl hunt witches and afterwards use the witche's 'seed' to restore their energy, so they're practically the same being.
Actually, they're using the witches seeds to remove the taint on the Soul Gems.
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Originally Posted by taofd
In response to i) why?
What he actually said was:
"Kono Kuni de wa seichou to chuu no jousei no koto wo, shoujo te yobun darou?"
In this country, developing females are called "girls".
"Datara, yaga de majou ni naru kimitachi no koto wa mahou shoujo te iubeki da yo ne?"
Then it only makes sense to call those who become witches, "mahou shoujo".
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 45
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Originally Posted by magnuskn
Well, her soul gem being in Madokas "color" could either mean that Homura was so specially devoted to Madoka that even her soul was tinged in her likeness or that Homura has the soul-gem of the alternate timeline Madoka.
Or it's a red herring, but given how much focus the writers put on symbology and details, I kinda doubt it.
Now that is an interesting theory.
What if Alt-Madoka had her body destroyed and Homura secured Alt-Madoka's soul gem? (Or maybe Homura just stole it as a way to "save" Alt-Madoka?)
Doubt it's true, but a possibility.
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I do see validity in Estavali's line of reasoning, and for that matter, I will echo Mentar in flat out stating that the nature of Madoka and Homura's relationship is perhaps a major fulcrum in leveraging story progression.
However, we know not if a mean for salvation of Sayaka exist, which is to the greatest detriment of the theory. If redemption from falling to utter darkness is definitely possible because of Madoka for some reason, it may lead to this Sayaka the Emiya Archer-esque scenario, but Urobuchi Gen always has viewed things such as miracle as the corrupted chalice that the Grail War's been fought for, to further extend the metaphor.
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It is because that I think the birth of a story... is from people dreaming of a happy ending. ~Misaka Shiori
Location: I've moved around the American West. I've lived in Oregon, Washington, Utah, and Oklahoma
Age: 45
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Originally Posted by Endscape
A bit harsh there, isn't it?
True, Homura's obsession with keeping Madoka safe is a bit focused on Madoka. She should go the Touma route and 'protect the world she lives in.'
That said, while Homura's attitude irritates me from time to time, I can feel pity for her. Her methods may be wrong, but she's trying.
Unless the more wild theories are true and Homura is:
A: Alt-Sayaka: She's already sacrificed herself, why not sacrifice her alternate self as well? Heck, she might even view it as saving her alt-self from a fate worse than death.
B: Madoka's mother: What mother wouldn't sacrifice everything to save her daughter?
Homura's attitude is scary in it's ruthlessness, but there is a desperation about her that seems to bespeak a very deep devotion to Madoka's well being.
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Author
Since you said that she is trying which I agree with, her methods are not entirely bad either though. At least since they aren't supposed to be. She (imo) shouldn't be blamed for the way she turned to be. It's understandable that because of her attitude and such that her methods become equally ineffective, but it's also not nice (and not smart) of the others to distrust her without any second thoughts that she might not be this bad after all.
) makes a new contract with Kyubey to go back in time and prevent Madoka from forming the contract. Kyubeyy agrees, surprisingly, but probably because he is confident of her plans falling apart. 
), but what I want to say is that in the original timeline, Akemi Homura doesn't exist and the run of events is very likely to be very different (for example, nobody to try and kill her like what Homura did in this episode). If she's successful, then hooray! the mess is clear and her work is done (whether she'll just vanish at that point is yet another piece of speculah). If not, then she'll just have to keep jumping and jumping until she hits the original timeline again and try all over once more.
