Madoka Magica - Episode 08 Discussion / Poll

[Zaresh]

Just to clear up things. Those who still believe QB isn't evil, What you people think being evil is? Because, for my standards, he's pretty evil right now.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Unless the more wild theories are true and Homura is:

A: Alt-Sayaka: She's already sacrificed herself, why not sacrifice her alternate self as well? Heck, she might even view it as saving her alt-self from a fate worse than death.

B: Madoka's mother: What mother wouldn't sacrifice everything to save her daughter?

Homura's attitude is scary in it's ruthlessness, but there is a desperation about her that seems to bespeak a very deep devotion to Madoka's well being.

There's a thread on speculation / spoilers .

Talking about Alt-Sayaka doesn't make a lot of sense, we have no idea what happened in the alt-world.

[Shadow5YA]

Looks like Madoka is being set up as a Christ-like figure. She'll sacrifice herself to save everyone, but Homura will grieve at Madoka's downfall and will wish to go back in time to prevent Madoka from becoming a Puella Magi.

Kyubey is just out for food. Kyubey creates the Puella Magi, who defeat Witches to get their Grief Seed, which are then consumed by Kyubey for food. The supply of Witches eventually dwindle because the Puella Magi defeat them all and Kyubey eats the Grief Seed, so the Puella Magi inevitably exhaust their magic and become Witches themselves. Kyubey then finds new Puella Magi to defeat the new Witches, and the cycle continues.

If Madoka is the most powerful Puella Magi, then she can also become the most powerful Witch, which will provide Kyubey with what will probably the most delicious Grief Seed ever.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Zaresh

Just to clear things. Those who still believe QB isn't evil, What you people think being evil is? Because, for my standards, he's pretty evil right now.

What has QB specifically done that has been evil.

So far I can only count:

1) Lying through omission
2) Eating himself (although is that evil...?)
3) Subtle manipulation / trying to get girls into contract (but if this is evil... lol salesmen)

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Unless the more wild theories are true and Homura is:

A: Alt-Sayaka: She's already sacrificed herself, why not sacrifice her alternate self as well? Heck, she might even view it as saving her alt-self from a fate worse than death.

B: Madoka's mother: What mother wouldn't sacrifice everything to save her daughter?

Homura's attitude is scary in it's ruthlessness, but there is a desperation about her that seems to bespeak a very deep devotion to Madoka's well being.

The future Sayaka theory makes sense, but the way she interacts with her presumed past self makes me doubt it.

What she said about Madoka not realizing that there are people who care about her sounds like guilt to me, which is why I'm in the Homura as future Madoka theory. Although, Homura being her mom, while out there does make sense.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Unless the more wild theories are true and Homura is:

A: Alt-Sayaka: She's already sacrificed herself, why not sacrifice her alternate self as well? Heck, she might even view it as saving her alt-self from a fate worse than death.

B: Madoka's mother: What mother wouldn't sacrifice everything to save her daughter?

Homura's attitude is scary in it's ruthlessness, but there is a desperation about her that seems to bespeak a very deep devotion to Madoka's well being.

I must admit that Madoka's mom being Homura seems possible except for a few points:

1) She has little to no idea of what her daughter is going through right now. And I doubt Kyubey will make a special trip over to her just break the bad news.

2) Going by Kyubey's last lines in this episode, it appears that his targets are young girls than adults. Perhaps, as mentioned in the past, that they are easier to deceive, and, I think, more profitable and interesting to break. Or, he needs a relatively pure heart/wish to create a Soul Gem and it's really hard for adults to do that (Madoka's mom is awesome, but I doubt she has the kind of purity needed).

Btw, this line:

'Then it only makes sense to call those who become witches, "mahou shoujo".'

should actually be:

'Then it only makes sense to call those who will become witches, "mahou shoujo".'

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Endscape

The future Sayaka theory makes sense, but the way she interacts with her presumed past self makes me doubt it.

What she said about Madoka not realizing that there are people who care about her sounds like guilt to me, which is why I'm in the Homura as future Madoka theory. Although, Homura being her mom, while out there does make sense.

I don't think future Sayaka makes sense at all. If Homura was future Sayaka, there are plenty of ways for Future Sayaka to save herself and prevent all of this from happening.

Don't forget, future Sayaka and current Sayaka have completely different powers.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by taofd

There's a thread on speculation / spoilers .

Talking about Alt-Sayaka doesn't make a lot of sense, we have no idea what happened in the alt-world.

Actually we do know somethings about the alt-timeline. We know things occurred in the current timeline that surprised Homura. Thus these must be things that have not occurred previously.

To quote a relevant portion of my previous post on this:

3a: Homura is from an alternate timeline. Yup, the speculation was right... sort of. You see, she's not from the future future, but from a different future. Time travel here works more like Mirai Nikki- ain't that a comforting thought. This explains so much. It explains her shock that Mami died. Homura knew a Mami in the previous timeline, and in the previous timeline, Mami didn't die.

Q2: This is the first huge question that people are missing. Why did Homura interfere? She told Mami that it was her hunt. In the previous timeline there must have been something that happened, something that made Homura think that it was a key point to change the timeline. (The other one was when she tried to kill Kuybee in Ep 1.) What happened in the previous timeline? Did someone else get killed? Sayaka maybe? Or maybe just an injury to Sayaka? And Madoka used her wish to bring Sayaka back?

3b: Another subpoint on time travel. Homura was surprised when Sayaka became a Magical Girl. That means in the first timeline hereafter called HR-Time, Sayaka did not become a Magical Girl. Homura was horrified, and then concealed it. Is this just because Homura feared it would drag Madoka in? Or was there more to it? Maybe Homura does have feelings beyond just saving Madoka, but she suppresses them for what she thinks is the greater good? Typical Knight Templar. Remember how she acted so swiftly to save Sayaka, I think Homura may not be as unfeeling as she wishes she were.

Q3: So many things could have gone differently to have Sayaka not become a Magical Girl, but it is eerily connected to Sayaka's claim this episode that if Madoka had become a magical girl, that then she wouldn't have. At first I thought that this wasn't true, but maybe it is? Sayaka couldn't even understand why she said something so hurtful... maybe the soul corruption led her to speak the secret truth- maybe Sayaka became a magical girl not just because of Kamijo, but also because Madoka was so scared, and Mami was dead, and Sayaka really did want to protect everyone, protect Madoka- in the way that Madoka has pretty clearly always depended on Sayaka for? (yeah, that was in this episode too.)

Leading to the theory that Alt-Sayaka is Homura:

Q6: Is Homura related to Madoka somehow? This kind of devotion and desperation is rare outside blood ties. Where they just really close friends in HR-Time? Someone who knew about Madoka becoming a magical girl and yet had not signed a contract herself yet, and so could use her wish to leap between timelines or something?

Wild Guess: Homura is Sayaka from HR-Time. It has everything. It explains the devoted attempt to protect Madoka (an attempt to live up to the normal order of things where Sayaka protects Madoka, instead of Madoka sacrificing herself). The Knight Templar tendencies which we have seen Sayaka show. The delicious evil irony of Homura causing her own alt-self to become a Magical Girl and doom herself. The way Sayaka seemed able to detect the deceit from Homura that even we the viewers missed. The irony of not being able to manipulate yourself. The casual decision to kill Sayaka to prevent a Fate Worse Than Death, makes perfect sense if Homura is Alt-Sayaka. Why Homura was surprised at the different things she was surprised at. Why she thought she knew the outcome of the Charlotte hunt and identified it as a turning point. And why it caused her to break down emotionally when Madoka is about to sacrifice herself (again) to save Sayaka aka Homura.

Now there are a few problems with this. First of all, why doesn't Homura look like Sayaka?

So I'm not sold on this theory, but I think it's a decent possibility.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by taofd

What has QB specifically done that has been evil.

So far I can only count:

1) Lying through omission
2) Eating himself (although is that evil...?)
3) Subtle manipulation / trying to get girls into contract (but if this is evil... lol salesmen)

Uh... Incubator?

You know... tricking girls into making wishes so that they eventually become witches?

That... you know... kill people?

That isn't evil?

You don't recognize the difference in evil between a used car salesman selling you a lemon, and a devil tricking you into damning your soul to an eternity of pain and despair?

[Von Himmel]

Seems like everyone's 'nightmare' come true I won't say much about this episode regarding of its dark theme but...

....that fountain at the scene where Kyuubei got killed sure is beautiful

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by taofd

I don't think future Sayaka makes sense at all. If Homura was future Sayaka, there are plenty of ways for Future Sayaka to save herself and prevent all of this from happening.

Don't forget, future Sayaka and Homura have completely different powers.

Having different powers is easily explained through magic.

Homura has shown absolutely no interest in Sayaka at all, other than Madoka's relationship to her, and her way of handling Sayaka is way too bad, for the same person.

On the other hand, when Homura has been talking about the dangers of Madoka becoming a Mahou Shoujo, she constantly mentions how Madoka's actions affect other people. That sounds like guilt to me.

[taofd]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Actually we do know somethings about the alt-timeline. We know things occurred in the current timeline that surprised Homura. Thus these must be things that have not occurred previously.

To quote a relevant portion of my previous post on this:



Leading to the theory that Alt-Sayaka is Homura:



Now there are a few problems with this. First of all, why doesn't Homura look like Sayaka?

So I'm not sold on this theory, but I think it's a decent possibility.

Okay, I buy the fact that timeline are different, but I think there's still a bit
self-bias going on. You CANNOT infer that Sakuya MAY be homura by the fact that she couldn't lie to her, there are many reasons why Sayaka could detect a lie, and most of them have no relation to the fact that they are the same person.

Also, I echo your thought: Why don't they look the same if they're both Sayaka? They don't even have the same power.

[N1k1tung]

Awesome!
"Incubator" was so obvious and yet so far from being anticipated that I was shocked deeply.
Now we ultimately need Kyubey actions to be revealed in a possitive light towards humanity (not just to the creatures of his kind) for this artwork to become absolutely spectacular.

[Sackett]

Originally Posted by taofd

I don't think future Sayaka makes sense at all. If Homura was future Sayaka, there are plenty of ways for Future Sayaka to save herself and prevent all of this from happening.

Don't forget, future Sayaka and Homura have completely different powers.

My point would be that Alt-Sayaka (ie Homura) did not experience the same thing her first time through.

Think about it. Homura's existence significantly changed the timeline.

It led to Sayaka getting actively involved in protecting Kyubee in the first episode. It led to Mami dying in episode 3.

So the first time through it's very probable that Sayaka would not have contracted when she did. After all, Homura was surprised by Sayaka making a contract, and comments that she should have kept a closer eye on Sayaka.

Like I said, I'm not sold on this theory. I'm just pointing out both the plot arguments for it, and the attraction it would have as dramatic tragedy to a storyteller.

[taofd]

I think there is a lot of theory fragmentation going on. Can we move this discussion into the "spoiler / speculation" thread? lol

[Triple_R]

Originally Posted by musouka

Man, Homura...what a pathetic, disgusting excuse for a person she is.

I understand why she took the course she did. She was obviously close to Madoka in some sense in her timeline--not willing to jump on lovers quite yet--and thus understands that Madoka is most likely to martyr herself for the sake of others. Homura doesn't want to be one of the people Madoka feels like she she has to "save" and unduly influence her to become a magical girl. This means she purposely cultivates a distant air so that Madoka won't become close to her and, hopefully, won't care if something happens to her.

Having said that, I don't have any pity for this person at all. It makes me laugh when people say she loves Madoka. What a terrible, disgusting sort of love, if all you want is to keep the person breathing at the cost of everything they love. You'll kill her friends if they're going to make her sad, Homura? And then you'll sit there and talk about all the people that love and care about her? Well, you seem to do a pretty good job of letting those people vanish out of Madoka's life, so why not just be honest and say that the only person that matters is yourself? You don't really care if there's a mountain of corpses surrounding Madoka as long as you have the self satisfaction of knowing she's safe. I can't call that love. Just a sad obsession and self-centeredness.

Well, a lot of your observations depends on the exact nature of Homura's backstory, which is still clouded somewhat in mystery.

If Homura is just a magical girl who was close to Madoka at one time, and Madoka no longer remembers her (for some reason), then yes, her overall approach is questionable, and somewhat creepy.

However, it seems increasingly likely to me that Homura has seen these events pass by before, and tried to prevent a disastrous end before. Basically, that time travel and/or time reset is at play here. Homura may have tried a "gentler/softer" approach before, but that may have got her nowhere. So now she's trying a much more ruthless approach.

If so, her approach might not say a lot about her core personality.

For example, until this episode, Homura had been pretty stern to everyone, including Madoka. I think this is the first episode where we see Homura actually break down and shed tears for someone. Who knows what she's bottling up inside under a tough facade?


Edit: Also, on an "outside the canon" level, it's important to remember that this show is still an anime, made primarily for anime fans. Homura is clearly designed to appeal to yandere fans, lol. Indeed, she might be the most memorable yandere I've seen.

[Zaresh]

2) Eating himself (although is that evil...?)
3) Subtle manipulation / trying to get girls into contract (but if this is evil... lol salesmen)

Well... Wait, what?!

He's not eating himself. He, like a cannibal farmer, is planting seeds in innocent girls, lying through omission to them, and for the sole purpose to eat their seeds when those little magical girls (who, we must don't forget had lost their natural bodies. But, nevermind...) become mad, crazy evil, breaking their lifes, forever. And for hunting them, he pacts with more little innocent girls, lying through omission once again I must say, little girls who, eventualy, will become witches who he's going to hunt and whose seeds he is going to eat again. Basicaly, he's farming and sacrificing little innocent girls for feeding himself.

If that's not evil enough to call it evil, what is it?

[Xacual]

I still want to say that I believe that if Homura has gone back in time once, then this isn't the first time she has done it and since she always ends up in alternate timelines the differences between her original timeline and the new ones always cause her to make new mistakes or just not to expect things to happen.

Also I was thinking about this but QB could have started the entire cycle by himself, all he had to do was to grant a few miracles, those girls would have gotten powers but there weren't any witches so they slowly darkened and became the first witches then after that QB could start recruiting girls to fight those witches. Also if at anytime his mahou shoujo defeated all the witches they'd just eventually darken and become a new set of witches themselves. This operates on the idea that the soul gem darkens even without being used for magic because Sayaka was using some but she was also just walking around so I assume there is a built in mechanic to stop them from just sitting at home not doing anything and being fine.

[Estavali]

Originally Posted by Sackett

Now there are a few problems with this. First of all, why doesn't Homura look like Sayaka?

Plastic surgery. It won't do to appear before Madoka AND Sayaka looking like her old self

J/k I understand that this is yet another potential hole in this theory. Even if we explain it as her getting a new body after her old one was destroyed or damaged beyond further use, it still doesn't fully explain why she is given one that is not similar if not the same as her old body. The only explanation I can think of is that Madoka's wish goes something like, "I wish Sayaka-chan can start anew..." and ends up giving Sayaka a new, different body. So that she can start anew as a different person, though whether this is what Madoka had intended or not, we do not know (but if Sayaka is seen commiting a serious crime back in her original timeline, this might be possible).

As to the difference in powers... We don't really know why the mahou shoujo has the kind of weapons they used, though very likely it's tied to their wishes. If so, a different wish may result in different powers and even different fighting styles too.

But I'm grasping at straws here, I think

[Seihai]

Originally Posted by Triple_R

Edit: Also, on an "outside the canon" level, it's important to remember that this show is still an anime, made primarily for anime fans. Homura is clearly designed to appeal to yandere fans, lol. Indeed, she might be the most memorable yandere I've seen.

You mean kuudere.