Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Langus

There is a huge level of difference between the arrancar Nel swallowed Cero from and Grimmjow. She was terrified of Grimmjow and rightfully so - especially while he was in his released form.

At this point Ichigo knows that there are at least 4 arrancar (from Ulquiorra up) that he himself would have trouble beating therefore Nel wouldn't have a chance at beating them. In his eyes she is like his sister - a child. He would never ask her to subject herself to that kind of danger just to save Orihime. He wouldn't take the chance that during their escape they would run into one of the other four arrancar that are too strong for even him to beat without great difficulty.

In SS Ichigo had no knowledge of Renji's fight with Byakuya or the fact that he lost. His last knowledge of Renji's abilities was their fight that he barely made it out of alive himself. At least in SS he's seeing Renji, like Kenpachi, as something of an equal. Because Ichigo has never fought against Nel, apart from her ability to swallow Cero (which I would argue is not nearly as impressive as a bankai in his eyes - Renji's ability to achieve bankai in particular) he has no knowledge that she has any battle capabilities. Even with swallowing the cero it was still Ichigo who had to defeat that arrancar, not Nel, thus it makes no sense as to why he'd entrust Nel with Orihime unless he had a death wish for both of them.

As far as he knows the resistance he's received thus far has been because they want to stop him from removing Orihime from HM. Operating on that knowledge it seems more logical that he would want them to stay under his limited protection than leave and risk being captured again or killed (in Nel's case) by someone stronger (since she's not only a child but also a traitor).

Also Ichigo is rather overprotective of Nel. His fight with Ulquiorra is one good example. He took excessive damage from a kick from Ulquiorra because he was protecting her - a fact which Nel mentions as well. I can find the manga scan if you really need to see it, but I think you know I'm right in this regard. I can understand your dislike for Orihime, but underrating the way Ichigo has cared for Nel during HM just doesn't make any sense to me at all, especially when his actions towards her have been so obvious.

Oh no...I often argued that he did more screaming for Nel than Orihime but it's a spoiler. So I can't go into detail. Ichigo was trying to protect Nel. But he also tried to leave her in the begining ...She is from HM she could hide. In SS both Ganju and Hanatarou were weaker than he was. And entrusted them with the task of saving Rukia while he stayed to hold off Zaraki. That's pretty much the same thing. Don't you think?


No you do not need to get the scan. Haven't you noticed That I have dissected Bleach Manga and Anime or more than one occasion... And my memory is pretty damn good when it comes to it? I read and watch it everyday...IT'S AN OBSESSION.

It's just that. Once Nel swallowed that Cero. In my eyes she became a force to be reckoned with. I no longer saw her as a mere Chibi. I always felt it was more to her then cuteness. And Yachiru is a Chibi and strong as Hell. She even amazed Ichigo. So being a chibi does not matter and Ichigo has already seen through Uru, and Yachiru that little girls can kick ass too. He should have told them to flee.

All of SS was after Rukia. By your logic. He and Byakuya already beat Renji. He should have been the last person he trusted with Rukia. Especially knowing that there were captains running around who could just capture her. He should have kept her with him. But he didn't...He didn't want her to possibly get hurt. Says a lot to me.


I dislike Orihime because of Orihime. Not because I see her as a threat. I never have. I look at it objectively...Which is why my post are so long. I try to show you both sides and compare the two. If Inoue had a chance. I might have been on her side...But she doesn't. That's all. I am a ICHIGO fan. That's it. It just happens that he is in love with Rukia. And I am not undermining Ichigo's caring for Nel. He did...Like a sister. The same way he treats Inoue. He called Nel a Nakama. So she is not just anybody to him. ...She's made further progress than Inoue...in the short time she knew him

Her fear of GJ is unwarranted given...Well you know. Actually it seem she feared more for Ichigo then herself. But Nel rocks!

[Langus]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

Oh no...I often argued that he did more screaming for Nel than Orihime but it's a spoiler. So I can't go into detail. Ichigo was trying to protect Nel. But he also tried to leave her in the begining ...She is from HM she could hide. In SS both Ganju and Hanatarou were weaker than he was. And entrusted them with the task of saving Rukia while he stayed to hold off Zaraki. That's pretty much the same thing. Don't you think?

I'm sure you've read my Nel post so you'll know that I agree with your first comment whole heartedly (if not, got back a few pages).

I think he told Hanatarou and Ganju, both full grown males weak or not, to go save Rukia to get them the hell out of the way. He knew the fight with Kenpachi would be bad and possibly dangerous for them so he told them told them to leave. Both Hanatarou and Gangju were from Soul Society but at that point neither of them had been pegged as traitors so they were somewhat safe. Nel on the other hand was a known traitor and a child in Ichigo's eyes (more on that later) hence why he didn't send her off. He would have had no reason to spend so much time protecting her all through HM if he intended to have her go fend for herself in the end. That doesn't make sense at all. So instead he did the best he could do in that situation - asked Orihime to erect a barrier to protect BOTH her and Nel (suggesting that despite Nel's obvious display of chibi power he still thinks she needs protecting, and by Orihime nonetheless).

It's just that. Once Nel swallowed that Cero. In my eyes she became a force to be reckoned with. I no longer saw her as a mere Chibi. I always felt it was more to her then cuteness. And Yachiru is a Chibi and strong as Hell. She even amazed Ichigo. So being a chibi does not matter and Ichigo has already seen through Uru, and Yachiru that little girls can kick ass too. He should have told them to flee.

Yes, in YOUR eyes is exactly it. You may see Nel as something other than a chibi ball of cuteness but Ichigo doesn't. I'm sure you and I can both agree that Ichigo is a bit of an old fashioned guy. He likes to protect girls and is immediately certain that they need his protection unless forcefully shown otherwise. Hell he's even gone so far as to suggest that Chad and Rukia both need protection from him, much to their dismay. Given his attitude towards his other friends, why should we expect any different for Nel? The girl may have shown that she can swallow cero but to him, based on how he treats her, indulges her, etc. he still thinks of her very much as a child, a role which she embraces whole heartedly (despite future developments).

All of SS was after Rukia. By your logic. He and Byakuya already beat Renji. He should have been the last person he trusted with Rukia. Especially knowing that there were captains running around who could just capture her. He should have kept her with him. But he didn't...He didn't want her to possibly get hurt. Says a lot to me.

For someone who watches Bleach daily I would've thought your memory would've been better for this. Ichigo had no knowledge of Renji's fight with Byakuya. Therefore as far as he knows Renji has only been beaten by him in a fight which he himself barely made it out alive from. Considering he does know that Renji attained bankai, just as he did, he would have assumed that Renji's power grew as much as his own did (remember Ichigo is still pretty ignorant of how all this bankai and captain class power thing works - he just knows that he wins fights or doesn't win them). Given what ICHIGO knew it doesn't seem strange to me at all that he would entrust Renji, a fellow warrior who had proven his strength and a very close friend to Rukia, with Rukia's protection. He knew Renji would fight just as hard as he would to save Rukia and protect her, thus why he entrusted her to him. The situation isn't the same in HM. Nel has only just met Orihime and has no emotional attachment to her whatsoever, thus no reason to stick her neck out to save her.

Her fear of GJ is unwarranted given...Well you know. Actually it seem she feared more for Ichigo then herself. But Nel rocks!

Spoiler:

I'm pretty sure she was scared for herself. Nel herself didn't know she was "Nel" until she became "Nel" - catch my drift? Therefore in her eyes, as well as Ichigo's, Grimmjow is a threat to her.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Langus

I'm sure you've read my Nel post so you'll know that I agree with your first comment whole heartedly (if not, got back a few pages).

I think he told Hanatarou and Ganju, both full grown males weak or not, to go save Rukia to get them the hell out of the way. He knew the fight with Kenpachi would be bad and possibly dangerous for them so he told them told them to leave. Both Hanatarou and Gangju were from Soul Society but at that point neither of them had been pegged as traitors so they were somewhat safe. Nel on the other hand was a known traitor and a child in Ichigo's eyes (more on that later) hence why he didn't send her off. He would have had no reason to spend so much time protecting her all through HM if he intended to have her go fend for herself in the end. That doesn't make sense at all. So instead he did the best he could do in that situation - asked Orihime to erect a barrier to protect BOTH her and Nel (suggesting that despite Nel's obvious display of chibi power he still thinks she needs protecting, and by Orihime nonetheless).




Yes, in YOUR eyes is exactly it. You may see Nel as something other than a chibi ball of cuteness but Ichigo doesn't. I'm sure you and I can both agree that Ichigo is a bit of an old fashioned guy. He likes to protect girls and is immediately certain that they need his protection unless forcefully shown otherwise. Hell he's even gone so far as to suggest that Chad and Rukia both need protection from him, much to their dismay. Given his attitude towards his other friends, why should we expect any different for Nel? The girl may have shown that she can swallow cero but to him, based on how he treats her, indulges her, etc. he still thinks of her very much as a child, a role which she embraces whole heartedly (despite future developments).



For someone who watches Bleach daily I would've thought your memory would've been better for this. Ichigo had no knowledge of Renji's fight with Byakuya. Therefore as far as he knows Renji has only been beaten by him in a fight which he himself barely made it out alive from. Considering he does know that Renji attained bankai, just as he did, he would have assumed that Renji's power grew as much as his own did (remember Ichigo is still pretty ignorant of how all this bankai and captain class power thing works - he just knows that he wins fights or doesn't win them). Given what ICHIGO knew it doesn't seem strange to me at all that he would entrust Renji, a fellow warrior who had proven his strength and a very close friend to Rukia, with Rukia's protection. He knew Renji would fight just as hard as he would to save Rukia and protect her, thus why he entrusted her to him. The situation isn't the same in HM. Nel has only just met Orihime and has no emotional attachment to her whatsoever, thus no reason to stick her neck out to save her.



I'm pretty sure she was scared for herself. Nel herself didn't know she was "Nel" until she became "Nel" - catch my drift? Therefore in her eyes, as well as Ichigo's, Grimmjow is a threat to her.

To much to answer...But I didn't say Ichigo had knowledge of His fight. Only that he lost to both of them. And I think he's weaker than Nel. Sorry if you took it that way....

Nel just met Ichigo and stuck her neck out for him. She had no real emotional attachment for him then either. They'd just met. And hanatarou is not full grown! And the fourth are for healing. Ichigo knew he was weak. I don't care how you put it. He should have ran with her or told her to run. And protect Nel if you want it that way. He did not. He is not as passionate about protecting them. As he was Rukia. More like...Watch me prove I can protect you...

Um Nel wasn't a known traitor at that time. Just a Chibi who'd attached herself to him and not only swallowed a cero and spit it out. She has healing properties in her saliva. And even if she was a child. He's seen that Child do things some adults couldn't do. Chibi does not mean WEAK in Bleach.


And Ichigo isn't that damn stupid Yourichi explained. He knows how bankai's work And like you said...He didn't see the fight. How do you know for sure he knew Renji achieved Bankai? My memory is not faulty...You misconstrued what I said,

Oh yeah...Ichigo was a threat to her at first too...And you are still using spoilers at least label them before the "Big bad Moni gets you" And She still seem to be more threatened by him hurting Ichigo. Because Grimmjow has nothing on her...if you get my drift.

[ShuiMei]

LOL Sinta, honestly would not be the first person to suggest it, I've certainly thought about it but I'm terrified of the LSAT and I'm not really into the idea of litigation, which is what all constitutional lawyers in this country pretty much do. Though I am interested in Canadian Constitutional Law, my passion is really politics and government. I will be taking a Constitutional Law course next school year, so we'll see how that goes but it's most likely that any study of law I pursue will be in a political context...

and whoa OD, thanks for bringing that scene of Orihime talking about liking Ichigo while he was there, I didn't remember that at all! Of course, even considering that, I don't think he really understood the implications of what she said, nor do I think he is aware of how intense her feelings for him have become, but I do think it's interesting that Orihime did essentially say she liked him, though not directly to him...

Also, I am aware that the things I am saying are romantic, albeit in a somewhat cold and rational way. I do think that there are romantic undertones to Ichigo and Rukia's relationship, the very narrative itself is "romantic," the idea of a mysterious girl coming into a young boy's life and flipping it upside down, giving him power and a sense of purpose, that in itself is romantic. Rukia struggling to hold herself back when Ichigo was fighting with Grand Fisher, placing his head in her lap, thanking him for not dying, those scenes can be interpreted as romantic. Ichigo's unwavering determination to save Rukia, swooping onto the bridge before her, stopping the soukyoku just in time, these scenes can understandably be seen as romantic. However, though the scenes are "romantic" it does not necessarily mean that there are more than platonic feelings between them.

Platonic to me does not mean they just haven't had sex, I do not use it in this sense, I use it to differentiate between having non-romantic affection and having romantic feelings and intention. I still put forward that neither party has absolutely indicated that they desire the other party in a "more than platonic way," that they desire the other character in a romantic light and want to go beyond just emotional intimacy. Romantic feelings should be indicated by a desire for more out of their current relationship and wanting to be with the other person in that way, I have obviously not ruled out the possibility of romance, but I'm just not assured as you are.

It's really not a question of "they have never kissed," it's a question of "do they want to kiss?" I have no doubt that what Ichigo feels for Rukia and what she in return feels for him are feelings of great affection, it's the nature of that affection that I still find ambiguous. I think there is legitimate foundation to believe that there may be romantic affection transpiring between them, a possible desire to want more out of their relationship, but it is not an absolute, sure thing so far as I'm concerned.

What is a sure thing is how special and important they are to each other, so again, at this point in time I find their relationship straddling the line between platonic and romantic, because this is the most rational conclusion I can comfortably commit to...

[HaNa-san]

Langus OD I don't like to interrupt your argument, but I just wanted to share my opinion on nel issue..

I would go with Langus..I agree that ichigo is so protective over nel especially after seeing how attachment she is to him and who much she cares for him as a child...so I don't see him sending nel to run away with orihime and protect her with her life, since she needs protection in ichigo's eyes .. but I can understand what OD is trying to say.. comparing his determined to ss arc, he didn't attempt to find a way for orihime safety...and the opportunity was just on time when kenpachi came and helped ichigo to defeat noitera, kenpachi asked ichigo to run with orihime while he would stay to fight, but ichigo refused..why?? why insisting on staying if his priority was to save orihime..that just proved that he wasn't in hm only to save orihime unlike what he acted in ss to save rukia where her safety came first above everything..

As for the funny argument for eye quiver..ichigo eyes quivered (slow motion) by just seeing rukia standing on the window in ep 114 XD she didn't doubt
him or anything, all she did was standing in front of ichigo..is that means a prove of love..it's really a ridiculous argument from the start

edit:

Regarding rukia wanting to be close to ichigo after coming from ss by choosing to stay in his house..it is different from karakura arc considering that she has just met him and lost her power to him, so it was necessary for her to stay close and supervise his action..her company was needed to teach him the right way on carrying out his shinigami job.. therefore, her staying in the first arc was out of duty mainly more than anything else, even if she was comfortable on living with him, she had a bigger task to achieve. However, now she's no longer the shinigmi without a power..she regained her power and is able to fulfill her job anywhere..she can go to orihime house, uruhara place..etc , but she chose ichigos' house and even introduced herself to his family and insisted on sleeping in his closet..very suspicion I think XD

[BleachOD]

Orhime protect Nel...Nel protect Orihime. Either way...Fleeing should have been his first thoughts. But it's a dumb argument. So I will let the Nel chibi awesome badass or lovable weak child argument go. He is not as as intense. He is determined to save her. But he is lacking the emotion he clearly displayed in SS
I won't address the quivering thing. Because I used expressions and HT scoffed at them...So it's Ironic he's using them now...

@Mei...I think he did realize the implications. He just doesn't feel the same and at that moment he was more concerned with protecting her. He has to know. He can't fail to notice that she follows him around a lot...

Seriously, He knows...Rukia knows. But it has not helped Orihime that he knows. Plus a lot has happened so he hasn't had time to address his feelings for either. But when it comes to Rukia he doesn't have to. It shows...

[Langus]

Hana-san: Thanks

OD: I was reading a few chapters through the manga today and I found a particular scene interesting that hasn't really been discussed. I thought you might enjoy since it could be added to your retinue of Ichigo/Rukia proofs.

In the SS arc Rukia slept in Ichigo's bedroom no problem - he wasn't happy about it but I think that's moreso because he thought it was strange that she was sleeping in his closet and he didn't really know her. In the K-town arc when she says she's staying with him he immediately sets up an extra bed in his sisters' room (even though it's quite obvious there is no room there). So why the sudden change?

Spoiler for Ichigo looks uncomfortable trying to explain why he set up a bed for Rukia in his sisters' room:

I think an argument could be made for the fact that he is starting to see Rukia (and other female characters) in a more sexual light. I'm not saying he's a horn dog planning to jump their bones, but why the sudden panic over things like Rukia sitting on his bed or sleeping in his room?

Spoiler for Ichigo freaking over Rukia sitting on his bed:

Spoiler for Ichigo's logic for why Matsumoto shouldn't sleep in his room:

I think the sexual undertones are pretty clear here...

I think it suggests that Ichigo is growing not only physically and emotionally but sexually as well - he's become more aware of Rukia (and other girls) as sexual beings. He's lost his innocence in a way which is an important step and a necessary step if things are going to progress for him with any of the female leads into a romantic relationship. I think especially through these scenes one could suggest that he's starting to see Rukia in particular in a sexual light as well - otherwise, why the change of heart? She seems to be rather confused about the change in him as well.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Am I just full of bs or what?

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by Langus

Hana-san: Thanks

OD: I was reading a few chapters through the manga today and I found a particular scene interesting that hasn't really been discussed. I thought you might enjoy since it could be added to your retinue of Ichigo/Rukia proofs.

In the SS arc Rukia slept in Ichigo's bedroom no problem - he wasn't happy about it but I think that's moreso because he thought it was strange that she was sleeping in his closet and he didn't really know her. In the K-town arc when she says she's staying with him he immediately sets up an extra bed in his sisters' room (even though it's quite obvious there is no room there). So why the sudden change?

Spoiler for Ichigo looks uncomfortable trying to explain why he set up a bed for Rukia in his sisters' room:

I think an argument could be made for the fact that he is starting to see Rukia (and other female characters) in a more sexual light. I'm not saying he's a horn dog planning to jump their bones, but why the sudden panic over things like Rukia sitting on his bed or sleeping in his room?

Spoiler for Ichigo freaking over Rukia sitting on his bed:

Spoiler for Ichigo's logic for why Matsumoto shouldn't sleep in his room:

I think the sexual undertones are pretty clear here...

I think it suggests that Ichigo is growing not only physically and emotionally but sexually as well - he's become more aware of Rukia (and other girls) as sexual beings. He's lost his innocence in a way which is an important step and a necessary step if things are going to progress for him with any of the female leads into a romantic relationship. I think especially through these scenes one could suggest that he's starting to see Rukia in particular in a sexual light as well - otherwise, why the change of heart? She seems to be rather confused about the change in him as well.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Am I just full of bs or what?

You're not full of bs. You make some very good points, and you don't overanalyze the scenes.

These scenes suggest that Ichigo is beginning to notice girls in general-not just Rukia. He is maturing physically and emotionally, and it seems to me that he's starting to see Rukia differently than he used to. I'm not saying his freak-out over her sitting on his bed means he's in love with her, but he never seemed to care much about stuff like that before. His growth would enable him to forge a romantic relationship with several of the girls in the story, even though I think the manga dictates that it would be Rukia. His emotional growth and the subsequent changes in their relationship are evidence enough for me. His family is also very accepting of her, and his sisters appear to acknowledge their closeness; they don't think anything of Rukia being in his room while he's unconscious, and they even ask Rukia's permission to eat in there with him. While Orihime feels embarassed and awkward when she's in his room, Rukia is completely comfortable. I think Ichigo and Rukia's bond has already begun to develop romantic tendencies, and I expect them to grow even more given Ichigo's emotional developments.

And that was a really nice post, HaNa-san.

[BleachOD]

Originally Posted by Langus

Hana-san: Thanks

OD: I was reading a few chapters through the manga today and I found a particular scene interesting that hasn't really been discussed. I thought you might enjoy since it could be added to your retinue of Ichigo/Rukia proofs.

In the SS arc Rukia slept in Ichigo's bedroom no problem - he wasn't happy about it but I think that's moreso because he thought it was strange that she was sleeping in his closet and he didn't really know her. In the K-town arc when she says she's staying with him he immediately sets up an extra bed in his sisters' room (even though it's quite obvious there is no room there). So why the sudden change?

Spoiler for Ichigo looks uncomfortable trying to explain why he set up a bed for Rukia in his sisters' room:

I think an argument could be made for the fact that he is starting to see Rukia (and other female characters) in a more sexual light. I'm not saying he's a horn dog planning to jump their bones, but why the sudden panic over things like Rukia sitting on his bed or sleeping in his room?

Spoiler for Ichigo freaking over Rukia sitting on his bed:

Spoiler for Ichigo's logic for why Matsumoto shouldn't sleep in his room:

I think the sexual undertones are pretty clear here...

I think it suggests that Ichigo is growing not only physically and emotionally but sexually as well - he's become more aware of Rukia (and other girls) as sexual beings. He's lost his innocence in a way which is an important step and a necessary step if things are going to progress for him with any of the female leads into a romantic relationship. I think especially through these scenes one could suggest that he's starting to see Rukia in particular in a sexual light as well - otherwise, why the change of heart? She seems to be rather confused about the change in him as well.

I dunno, what do you guys think? Am I just full of bs or what?

I actually posted the anime versions. It was easier to take shots. Unless I say its a filler. I only use shots that are canon. But I like my scans better. My say that it was his fathers doing not his choice. He makes it seems like it's her fault for exposing herself...and he tells her if she doesn't like it talk to them. He doesn't seem like he's happy with the decision either...

I can't stop reading and watching Nodame Cantbile...I will post em later

[HaNa-san]

Your welcome Langus

Thank you blue skies

Nice post Langus ^^..I think he's also pissed off at the fact that rukia was so comfortable setting on his bed while he wasn't, but in the end, she sat XD maybe because he didn't want to make a big fuss about it which'll look suspicion especially after his family curiosity acting..

As for him noticing women's attraction in general.. I think matsumoto was the one to blame XD since she was the one to start it, she isn't even close to ichigo and yet suggested to stay..poor him, he lost his innocence since the day he saw the naked yourichi >.>

anyway, since we're in the topic of ichigo's attraction sense of women ..I think his look in ch 213 was the closest one to be considered a romantic one… I can consider it as an expression of attempting to have a kiss with rukia XD comparing it to orihime kiss scene

Spoiler for lol:

here is even much more obvious with the blushing thing that I added

Spoiler for fun XD:

[Langus]

^^ Oh my... If only it'd gone that way and Rukia hadn't been near death eh? I think a lot of questions would've been solved in that case.

[Amirali]

I don't have anything left to argue here for myself, having given up hope in Ichi_Hime for the time-being. However, I still find the essays here quite insightful, and I occasionally get curious for a clarification. So, here goes:

Shuumei, OD, could you make a little clearer the distinction between romantic feelings and platonic? Is it just the physical attraction? Or is there some other factor that separates it? The two of you have been debating it for a while now, but it's still rather amorphous to me.

I saw where you said it's NOT about sex, OD. But then is it just the emotional intimacy :S? Doesn't there have to be something more? I get some of what you're saying about emotional bonding and maturity being more important than bones jumping. But what aspect of the emotional understanding and compassion can lovers have that really close friends can't? Perhaps my naivete betrays me here.

And Shuumei, I found your attempt at a distinction between the two more awkward than your usual powerful prose:

Platonic to me does not mean they just haven't had sex, I do not use it in this sense, I use it to differentiate between having non-romantic affection and having romantic feelings and intention. I still put forward that neither party has absolutely indicated that they desire the other party in a "more than platonic way," that they desire the other character in a romantic light and want to go beyond just emotional intimacy

The definitions seem a little circular here..........."platonic" = non-romantic, and "romantic" = "more than platonic". I still don't quite get the distinction. Where does the line lie, how is it demarcated, where is it crossed? When does the rest of the world know it's been crossed? Does such a line even truly exist :S?

[HayashiTakara]

You know you're right? A lot of your comments makes you smug and arrogant. What you're basically saying is that people's means squat diddly, and whatever your professor or whoever tells you is the absolute truth, and no one's experience can change that.

Experience and relationships variates greatly from person to person, to assume a whole is as bad as saying all gay men are into pink flowery shirts, you're stereotyping a relationship between a man and a women. Even though you are trying to mask it, you are indeed deriving such conclusions on your own personal experiences. Or are you saying your experiences are more "right" than mine? sorry, but those are fighting words in my book.

Am I ruling out that good friends can be lovers? no, of course not, my experience tells me its completely possible, as my fiance was once my best friend. But, I'm still best friends with my other female friends where it hasn't proved no where as detramental as you are claiming it would be. Look beyond yourself and realize that people's relationships aren't as black and white as you are painting it to be. what I see, say and think about relationships between men and women is from my own experience as well as witnessing relationships of my friends and siblings. And I am 100% sure millions of others will argue this point as well. So don't think that you are the absolute truth.

Just because you share a personal bond, doesn't mean it has to go beyond, its like saying, "Oh you're best friends, you HAVE to fall in love and start bumping boots because I say so" this is what I picked up with your choice of words, and for over a 100 chapters Ichigo's relationship with Rukia hasn't evolved. And that puts a big damper on your theory/statement/whatever you want to call it. The focus has been shifted over to Inoue, and will stay that way for a long time. Rukia is now a side character, as Orihime was in the S.S. arc. Theres currently a role reversal that you cannot ignore.

You say theres no tension? then explain why Ichigo was having such a hard time trying to talk to Inoue after the incident? And yes it is relevant that Inoue doesn't know Ichigo gives that look to everybody, as it will put her mind at least a little at ease. Knowing something that isn't exclusive can change a perspective.

Yes, I am well aware that Inoue is Jealous of the relationship that Rukia and Ichigo has. She said it herself, in not those exact terms, but its easy enough to tell. But, she is jumping the gun. Theres nothing finite between Rukia and Ichigo. Her bases are understandable, but she shouldn't automatically assume, assumption is a humans worst flaw, and she assumed the worst possible scenario in terms of her chances of her gaining Ichigo's romantic interest.

As far as physical attraction is concerned, Ichigo is obviously attracted to full bodied women as any red blooded man would, and Matsumoto flaunts her goods which makes it hard for any man to resist. Orihime is fairly reserved, she doesn't have her cleavage popping out, and she's covered fully, save for her head. I'm willing to bet that if Inoue was wearing a bikini, Ichigo would think twice before grabbing her in that fashion.

I'll touch on the whole closet thing again, as I probably didn't make it too clear. You say the "only" possible reason that she wants to stay in his closet was to be with him? I say false, as mine is more likely false too, as its an interpretation. I don't claim things to be as absolute as you do. I take variations and possibilities into consideration. You chose the reason that would best benefit your vantage point, which is fine, we all do that. But, I'll state a possible reason for her being there. One, she's grown accustomed to staying in Ichigo's room, when she came back she automatically assume that she can stay there again. But, she made her presence known to the whole household this time. And that frustrates Ichigo severly, as he does NOT want his family to misinterpret what Rukia is to Ichigo. And her staying in his room would further distort that misinterpretation, which Ichigo doesn't want to happen. If he indeed harbored such romantic feelings for her, he wouldn't be against it so much, he would actually show some kind of happiness that the person he longs for is staying so close to him. Rukia likes to tease Ichigo, its a part of her personality. She is either extremely oblivious to the misunderstanding it would cause, or she just wants to see Ichigo frustrated. Again, I'm only merely speaking of a possibility, if you want to turn a blind eye to it, then thats fine your freedom to do so.

Yes, we all know that currently Inoue's feelings are one-sided. Thats obvious enough. But as far as we are concern with undesputable evidence, Inoue is the only one that has conveyed such emotions. And I know you hate it when I bring it up, but such grounds typically leads to fruition in the Shonen genre. I'm still skeptical about Kubo intending Rukia and Ichigo's relationship to grow into something of romantic nature. If he hasn't brought up either Rukia or Ichigo thinking about the other in a romantic nature when its this far into the game, I doubt he'll ever will. As the way the plot is laid out right now, theres simply no room for it to happen. Especially since its Inoue thats centric right now. If Rukia is the centric female lead for the current plot, It would be different, but alas, it is what it is. I'm not saying that because the way it is that Ichihime is going to happen, I'm just saying the likelihood of IchiRukia is even less than fans have hoped for it to be. Like I mentioned in a past post, I'm roughly 80 - 90% sure that it'll be open ended, with Ichigo still as ambiguous as ever.

Your entire argument is "I'm right and you're wrong", You are closed to all possibilities, only the ideas that you have in your mind do you consider right and no amount of argument will change that. In a court room, your method is correct, even if you know you're wrong or lying you must show an unwavering conviction and be insistent that you are in the absolute right, but this is not a court room, and your constant "I'm right, you're wrong" just makes you appear smug and arrogant. I don't need to talk about Rukia too much, I do acknowledge possibilities of the "opposing" side, but I acknowledge possibilities on my side as well. And as a person arguing for my side, I only need to talk about my "client." You just outright refuse and don't acknowledge any other possibilities but that of your own. Who in the right mind would argue with someone with that mind set? It'll just be an endless banter.

This is obviously my first monster post, and really I have nothing against you Sinta, I think you're an alright guy, but your constant "I'm right, You're wrong." really struck a nerve.

[Langus]

Edit: No sleep + grumpiness from not sleep = I pick on HT unnecessarily. Sorry dude.

Though I do maintain that you could stand to simmer down a bit.

[HayashiTakara]

When have I said, "I'm right, you're wrong"? I have never once closed off myself to the possibilities. Trying to read inbetween the lines when theres nothing to be read?

Where have I said there was no relationship development? I've said I see no romantic development, big difference between the two, try figuring it out if you're not too busy.

[ShuiMei]

Ugh, I guess it's still not very clear? I didn't know that people didn't understand the difference between the two, but like Sinta says, the line can be very fine, and in regards to Rukia and Ichigo's relationship, I think their feelings for each other straddle that line.

Platonic love is non-sexual, non-romantic love, people often use the example of the love between a parent and child as an example; however, as I've said before, I don't think Ichigo and Rukia's affections for each other are filial, they clearly mean very much to each other but they don't treat each other like family. Others would also use the example of love between friends, which does apply to Ichigo and Rukia's relationship to some degree, but as Orihime and Kubo told us, they are more than just friends, they are the ones who changed each other's world.

With that, I suppose the lack of physical attraction would the most obvious difference between the two, but it's also about the desire for someone, wanting to be with that person in a sensual way. Like I said in my previous post, it's really a matter of "do they want to kiss?" We know that Ichigo and Rukia have a strong attachment to each other, but does this attachment translate to physical attraction? I think this aspect of their relationship is still unclear, which is why I'm not ready to believe that the two absolutely have romantic feelings for each other. On the other hand, their relationship clearly has an element of physical attachment in that the two want to be close to each other, but the reasons for wanting to be close to each other, is it simply because they value and need each other emotionally, or is there something more romantic and sensual behind these feelings? I think this area is still ambiguous.

Emotionally speaking, I think honestly think that there's very little difference between platonic and romantic love, at least in the way I use it in reference to Ichigo and Rukia's relationship. I think they have a deep, emotionally intimate relationship, but it's not the progress here that prevents me from feeling that they may have romantic feelings for each other, indeed, it is the progress here that makes me think it's highly plausible that their feelings may be(come?) romantic, but what puts me off is that lack of obvious desire, the lack of wanting physical intimacy and thinking of the other party in that way.

...I don't think I've done any better explaining the difference and am no more articulate either, sorry! I think I could better probably illustrate the differences if I used a different pairing, one that was not so ambiguous in nature, but that's why I've long characterized their feelings for each other as "more than friends, less than lovers," and at this point in time, that's the best I can do, my apologies LOL

[HiroInazuma]

I just noticed something that was said in another thread, Rukia doesn't love Ichigo, she loves Kaien, she just thinks of Kaien when she is with Ichigo.

[ShuiMei]

That argument fails, it has been brought up several times, so I shall direct you here:
http://forums.animesuki.com/showpost...postcount=2519

with a small exert, in that "I doubt anyone would even put forward that Rukia only likes Ichigo because he reminds her of Kaien if it were understood that Rukia's feelings and relationship with Ichigo were strictly platonic. If they were simply "just friends," would anyone say that the only reason Rukia cares about Ichigo is because he looks like Kaien? That the only reason she's such good friends with him is because he reminds her of Kaien? I think not. Rather it's because their relationship and feelings are so ambiguous, and that there is some subconscious acknowledgment of possibly more-than-platonic feelings between the two, that some people feel the need to degrade their relationship by saying Rukia is transplanting her feelings from Kaien on to Ichigo."

So when people say that Rukia doesn't love Ichigo, that her feelings are rooted in her feelings of Kaien, that would naturally imply that these people think Rukia's feelings are romantic in nature.

[HayashiTakara]

@ShuiMei, I agree with your post for the most part. Its that lack of physical attraction, that need to be sensual with one another is not there. And that hasn't changed or grown, at least to my awareness, that has majorly turned me off to the idea that they will indeed lead into a romantic relationship. Physical desire is a major part of a romantic relationship, relationships often fail when that part becomes non-existent. Would you or anyone marry another if you don't have the desire to "touch" that person? or vice versa.

[Amirali]

ShuiMei, thanks for the explanation. It was as articulate and clear as I could've hoped for . Dumb as this may sound, I always appreciate when someone takes so much time to spell their thoughts out in complete detail. And that's why I like your posts, monstrous as they can be. The reason it was clearer this time was that you emphasized the sensual connection more (although you did reference it before, but not as explicitly).

Sorry if I sounded too much like I was nitpicking earlier........it's just that the line between platonic and romantic is by nature a very fine one, as you and Sinta have said. Especially for borderline cases. It's hard for anyone to clearly define that boundary without risking oversimplification. Sinta was able to sidestep that tricky issue, by arguing any relation that already has the emotional intimacy is likely (if not cetain) to eventually immigrate across the border between platonic and romantic. And that's it for me, till the next time I have a question to ask .