Learning Japanese (上級)

[noraemon]

Originally Posted by Ryuou

　

日本人ですよ、龍王さん。
I am Japanese, Mr. Ryuou.

Is it a difference of "can't" and "don't"in 「べからず」and 「まじ」?
It is very difficult to explain it.Because these words are used only in ancient Japanese.(It is a word that Samurai and the aristocrat were using. )

I write an example sentence and explain it.

「べからず」
1.（Use it for the end of a sentence）It is words to mean prohibition.

展示品に手を触れるべからず。
Please do not touch a display.
花をとるべからず。
Do not pick the flowers.

2.（In form of "ざるべからず"）It is words to mean will to emphasize instructions and an order.

人の危難を見ては救助せざるべからず。
Rescue it when you see others' crises.
勝利をめざして奮励努力せざるべからず。
Make an effort aiming at victory.

3.It is words to mean impossibility.

許すべからざる行為。
The act that I cannot forgive.
羽なければ、空をも飛ぶべからず。
I cannot fly in the sky if I do not have a feather.

4.It is words to deny a natural thing.

われ他の女に近付くべからず。
I cannot approach the other girls.

「まじ」
1.It is words to mean the will of the guess of the negation.

唐(から)の物は、薬のほかは、なくとも事欠くまじ。
Even if there is not the Chinese thing besides the medicine, I cannot need to be troubled.

2.It is words to mean will of the negation.

ゆめゆめ粗略(そらく)を存ずまじう候。
I intend to never treat it in irresponsibility.
この川は近江の湖の末なれば、待つとも待つとも水干まじ。
Because this river flows from the Lake Oomi, this river cannot never dries up.

3.It is words to mean that I am natural that it is denied.

いとあるまじきこと。
It cannot be determined.

4.It is words to mean the will of the guess of the impossibility.

ここにおはするかぐや姫は、重き病をし給へば、えいでおはしますまじ。
It doesn't seem to be able to go out because serious illness suffers as for The Moon Princess that comes here.

5.It is words to mean will of the inappropriate and prohibition.

警官としてあるまじき行為だ。
It is the act that you must not do as a police officer.
妻(め)といふものこそ男の持つまじきものなれ。
A man had better not have the thing called the wife.

A little of you if was able to be useful,I think that I am glad.
I'm sorry in a poor explanation.
I studied Japanese classical literature again.

[mendokusa]

After A.D794（平安時代以降）,when translate clasical Chinese writing（漢文）,used "べからず".
Or,used "まじ".

"まじ" is denial of "べし".
"べからず"is "べし" and "ず".
Long time change "まじ" "まい".
”まい”　use from A.D1392 to now.

Now "まじき" "まじ" and ”べからず” are used.
あるまじき行為だ。（してはいけない行為だ）
It's the action you must not do.
許すまじ。（許せない。）
Can't tolerate it.
働かざるもの食うべからず。（働かない者は食べてはいけない。）
who don't work must not eat.

[RandomGuy]

So, change of subject.

I've been reading Kokoro in my (very little) spare time, and I was struck at one point by the following bit of dialogue, spoken by the narrator:
「これから折々お宅へ伺っても宜ござんすか」
"Kore kara oriori otaku e ukagatte mo yo gozansu ka"
"Is it all right if, from now on, I come to visit periodically?"

The part that got me was よござんすか. After a little thought, it's clear that it's an oiran kotoba permutation of ようございますか (=よろしいですか). But I was surprised to see such phrasing in a late-Meiji setting, and moreover, coming from the mouth of a male character.

So, what gives, here?

[LiberLibri]

Originally Posted by RandomGuy

The part that got me was よござんすか. After a little thought, it's clear that it's an oiran kotoba permutation of ようございますか (=よろしいですか). But I was surprised to see such phrasing in a late-Meiji setting, and moreover, coming from the mouth of a male character.

So, what gives, here?

It is one of the notable characteristics of the Tokyo dialect in the era. After the Meiji revolution, military people from Satsuma (Kyushu) and Nagato (west end of Honshu) immigrated into the capital city, Tokyo. They sometimes married Geisha, and copied their accents as well as phrases. Native Edo inhabitants jeered at their strange and inappropriate speeches, but it spread out speedily. It is unsurprising male characters in Meiji era speak with Oiran terms.

[Skullchukka]

I didn't want to create a new topic for it, so I'll just write it down here.

I'm now learning Japanese, starting from Hiragana. However, my Hiragana looks utterly bad. Since I've always used a roman letter alphabet, I do find it confusing, but right now the drawing of the letters is really hard for me.

What would you suggest on this? I know Japanese kids practice each Hiragana 100 times or more till it gets good, I just thought some of you would have some diffrent aspect that you'd like to share.

[RandomGuy]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

I didn't want to create a new topic for it, so I'll just write it down here.

I'm now learning Japanese, starting from Hiragana. However, my Hiragana looks utterly bad. Since I've always used a roman letter alphabet, I do find it confusing, but right now the drawing of the letters is really hard for me.

What would you suggest on this? I know Japanese kids practice each Hiragana 100 times or more till it gets good, I just thought some of you would have some diffrent aspect that you'd like to share.

Repetition is obviously important.

As for improving your penmanship, you can start out by using grid-lined paper and dividing it into squares, which you can further subdivide into four segments each. As you draw each character, concentrate on getting the same parts in the same quadrant of the square each time, while maintaining the proper stroke order. You'll work up speed with practice.

That done, you can find actual Japanese manuscript paper (原稿用紙 genkou youshi) and just practice right down the line. But don't be discouraged if you occasionally produce a bad one: it happens to the best of us.

[Kylaran]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

I didn't want to create a new topic for it, so I'll just write it down here.

I'm now learning Japanese, starting from Hiragana. However, my Hiragana looks utterly bad. Since I've always used a roman letter alphabet, I do find it confusing, but right now the drawing of the letters is really hard for me.

What would you suggest on this? I know Japanese kids practice each Hiragana 100 times or more till it gets good, I just thought some of you would have some diffrent aspect that you'd like to share.

Practice is important. Just as pretty handwriting can often take practice even in our own native scripts, learning a foreign script takes a lot of practice to master. I think Hiragana will be relatively easy to use often, and eventually you'll find your hiragana looking fairly normal. Kanji should also be practiced constantly, not only to make the strokes look more natural, but also in order to reinforce memorization of the characters in general.

There's no easy way out of this. You were taught to practice print/cursive for letters of the roman alphabet; you just have to do the same again.

[Edit]If it helps, you should start thinking of hiragana as handwriting that is no different from English handwriting, or that of whatever language you were first instructed in. Being overly conscious of your writing while practicing is one of the ways that people botch their early attempts at writing, largely due to the fact that they don't let the natural hand strokes of the characters work their magic. Of course, you should work on making them neat and orderly by writing them in boxes to balance the height/width, but don't do it to the point where your lack of control is preventing you from learning to be comfortable with the writing. In my experience, familiarity comes before perfection of the characters themselves.

[Mystique]

Originally Posted by Skullchukka

I didn't want to create a new topic for it, so I'll just write it down here.

I'm now learning Japanese, starting from Hiragana. However, my Hiragana looks utterly bad. Since I've always used a roman letter alphabet, I do find it confusing, but right now the drawing of the letters is really hard for me.

What would you suggest on this? I know Japanese kids practice each Hiragana 100 times or more till it gets good, I just thought some of you would have some diffrent aspect that you'd like to share.

There are websites all over the internet
Hirgana Writing sheets to print out and practice on

Remembering the stroke order is rule #1.
That will help you with sense of balance between the parts of the strokes to get the hiragana out. As you can see on those sheets, they're split into a 4 grid box, so use that to your advantage.
Once you begin memorising, the strokes will flow in themselves and hopefully your handwriting will improve.
(Tbh, I need to also go back to basics just to keep my penmanship up)

Any future questions with beginners Japanese, come ask in this thread anytime. ^^

Good luck!

[RandomGuy]

I'm arbitrarily resurrecting this thread for help with a couple of questions that have been bugging me recently.

First of all, where (or by whom) is the imperative suffix 「〜やんせ」used? It seems pretty obviously derived from 「〜やんす」(which itself appears to be a cousin of Kyoto's 「〜やす」), but I haven't found too much specific information to go on.

Second, where (and how) did the stereotypical "old man" accent originate? A lot of the features (「わし」 as first-person pronoun, 「おる」as the progressive-tense auxiliary, 「のう」instead of 「なあ」) seem vaguely Chuugoku-esque, but maybe that's just similarity of surface-features. If the Chuugoku explanation is right, though, perhaps it had something to do with the mass-migration to Tokyo from Okayama and Yamaguchi in the Meiji era, and the way their Edokko offspring viewed them later in life? I'd appreciate someone shining some light on the subject for me.

[QED]

Hey everyone,

Having found an internship in Tokyo this summer and thus finding myself in a position where I need to become proficient at Japanese very quickly, I've been trying to cram in as much Japanese as possible as of late. I just had a quick grammar question for now though.

When is it appropriate to use n' datta as opposed to n' desu? I know you can use n' desu to explain something in both present and past tense, as in

Ringo o taberu ndesu
Ringo o tabeta ndesu

However, I also have encountered (rarely) a similar construction with "ndatta" instead of "ndesu." As in:

dakedo itsumo okorarete iru ndatta

So what's the difference here? Could this last sentence have made just as much sense using an ndesu construction, but with the main verb as okorareteita rather than okorareteiru? As in, "dakedo itsumo okorarete ita ndesu"

Thanks a lot everyone.

[nikorai]

RandomGuy

I'm sorry I don't know a thing about dialects. Best to bring mendokusa-san here and kindly ask him for explanations. I know he’s a pro in Japanese.

QED
Looking at the examples I found I come to the fact the difference is in mood.

You have indicative with んです。
1081号の自分の部屋に上がっていったら、中に誰かほかの人がいたんです。
I went up to my room, 1081, and someone else was in there.


And conditional with んだった。
# こんなこと（が起こると分かっていた）なら、何か準備しておくんだった。
If I had known this would happen, I would have done something to prepare.

# 全部、ビデオに撮るんだった。
I just wish we had it all on video.

So it's like there should have been/was supposed to be there but it isn't.

Or I found this explanation in the dictionary


(3)（「のだった」の形で）事態の説明をやや詠嘆的に言い表す。
In the form of “no datta” you explain situation rather emotionally.
So, this is your case.

dakedo itsumo okorarete iru ndatta
But they are always angry at me (but not supposed to).

I hope this helps. But personally I don’t exactly know how to use のだ（のです）construction properly so it’s all pretty confusing to me.

[Honeysuckle]

Originally Posted by Doraneko

ナギ（@ ep1）：
わらわも取り敢えずは、そちの傍におれば安全のようじゃからの。よろしく頼むぞ｡

Sorry, I'm late.
This is a speech of top-class samurai's wife or daughter.

むりに拙い英語を駆使して、ミスするよりマシかと思います。日本語で失礼。

これは最上層の武家(士族)女性のことばです。
大名夫人、姫君、といったあたり。江戸時代というのはその通りです。
"そち" "そのほう" などは、目下の者に声をかける場合の "you"。

蛇足：花魁について
日本の娼婦の社会的地位は、
キリスト教的倫理が入ってくる前は、ずいぶん違うものでした。
最も有名な歌舞伎の演目「仮名手本忠臣蔵」では、
主人のため夫のために娼婦となった女性が、兄から激賞される場面があります。
花魁は幼い頃から徹底的に芸事や教養を仕込まれた最上級娼婦で、
莫大な資金が必要なため、大名や富豪でなければ客にはなれません。
また通い続けても、相手にしてもらえるとは限りません。選択権は花魁にあります。
大名夫人(正夫人ではありませんが)になった者もいたそうです。
昔、日本には「椿姫」のような女性を養成する仕組みがあったというところでしょうか。
花魁の写真は明治期のお堅い文芸雑誌の表紙になったとか。スターだったんですね。
また、日本の古典をお読みになる機会があれば、
時の最高権力者と付合った女性たちの名前に出くわすこともあろうかと思います。

[Doraneko]

Originally Posted by honeysuckle

-snip-

非常にご丁寧な説明で、ありがとうございました。

花魁は日本の娼婦だったという認識が一応ありますが、その地位や社会への影響力について全く知らなかったの です。勉強になりました。

[Honeysuckle]

I've searched youtube for sample of 廓言葉.
Nothing.


sample of "わらわ"
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KU_Ms...eature=related
7:00-
（ "にしのかた へきえんの ち"「西の方、僻遠の地」 suggests 西方浄土.
→ They are talking about death.）

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9L4IE...next=1&index=5

[Doraneko]

Originally Posted by Honeysuckle

I've searched youtube for sample of 廓言葉.
-snip-

廓言葉という言葉は初耳です。また新しい言葉と出くわせてありがとうございます。ご紹介の Youtube 動画も参考になりました。

また、時代劇の日本語といえば、本当にかつての言葉遣いをそのままに使いますか。それともあえて現代語を古 く感じるように工夫された結果ですか。

[Honeysuckle]

Originally Posted by doraneko

時代劇の日本語といえば、本当にかつての言葉遣いをそのままに使いますか。それともあえて現代語を古く感じ るように工夫された結果ですか。

江戸時代の人気小説、『春色梅児誉美』（梅暦）の冒頭から、
セリフ部分を抜き出してみました。（文字使いは現代のものに直してあります）

「すこしごめんなさいまし、ごめんなさいまし」
「アイどなたえ？」
「そういうお声は若旦那さん」
「米八じゃねえか。どうして来た？　そして隠れて居るここが知れるというもふしぎなこと。まあまあ、こちら へ。夢じゃねえか」

『東海道中膝栗毛』(1802)も、まあ、こんなものでした。
江戸時代後半の江戸の庶民がタイムスリップして来たとしても、
学者を連れて来て通訳させる必要はなさそうです。

脚本家は学者ではありませんし、作品は一般視聴者にうけ入れられないと困るでしょうし、
『かつての言葉遣いをそのままに』は、日本に限らず、時代を隔てるほど期待し難いでしょうが、
江戸時代後半、お話の舞台も江戸、ということなら、
「そのまま」に極めて近い作品もあり得るのではないかと思います。
素人である私としては、このあたりが限界です。
個人的には、言葉より、時代考証の方が気になります。

[ryohei]

Originally Posted by Doraneko

廓言葉という言葉は初耳です。また新しい言葉と出くわせてありがとうございます。ご紹介の Youtube 動画も参考になりました。

また、時代劇の日本語といえば、本当にかつての言葉遣いをそのままに使いますか。それともあえて現代語を古 く感じるように工夫された結果ですか。

江戸時代と比べて、同じ単語でも発音は変化しています。しかし時代劇において発音を江戸時代のものに戻した りはしませんね。

江戸時代に日本に来たポルトガルの宣教師は「日本」という単語を「Nifon」と表記しています。現代の発 音なら「にほん、Nihon」となりますね。
現代のハヒフヘホ(ha hi hu he ho)は江戸時代にはファフィフフェフォ(fa fi fu fe fo)に近かったらしいです。
「広い野原(hiroi nohara, wide field)」は江戸の発音だと、「ふぃろいのふぁら(firoi nofara)」となるらしいですが、現代人にはきっと理解できません。

日本語の発音は、古代は中国の、そして現代は英語の影響を強く受けています。老年世代にはなかった、vaを ヴァ、baをバと表記し分ける文化はこの20年くらいでかなり浸透したのではないかと思います 。

[Honeysuckle]

発音の問題はまったく考えていませんでした。時代劇を作る際、発音の指導まではしないでしょう ね。
ryoheiさん御指摘の「ハ」行の音は、江戸時代中頃には"h"になっています。



> 老年世代にはなかった、vaを ヴァ、baをバと表記し分ける文化はこの20年くらいでかなり浸透したのではないかと思います 。

100年以上前から、"v"の音を"ヴ"や"ヰ"(ワ行イ段 カタカナ)を使って表記することは、おこなわれていますが、
"television"は通常 "テレビ" "テレビジョン"と表記され、"b"音で発音されています。
外務省は、"ヴィエトナム"から"ベトナム"、"ヴァンクーヴァー"から"バンクーバー"へと表記をあらた めたそうです。

ミネラルウォーター"Volvic"のカタカナ表記が、"ボルヴィック"となっているのは、大いなる謎です 。

[Omusubi]

For advanced learners

Hello.
I would like to introduce a book titled "nihongo sakubunjutsu".
Actually, a good guide for composition is rare.
If you can read Japanese sentenses, this recently published book for composition would be a good textbook.

The book contains a lot of tricks/ideas suggested by predecessors
( a better choice of subject, a favorable position of ,（読点 touten） mark).
You can use those techniques to make your sentenses easy to understand.
Trying to rewrite given Japanese sentenses along these rules is very fun.
I say, this is awesome.

日本語作文術(ISBN-10: 4121020561, ISBN-13: 978-4121020567)
you can buy it via amazon.jp. it is cheap.

[thevil1]

Isn't there already a topic for learning Japanese? http://forums.animesuki.com/showthread.php?t=180