[Game] Umineko no Naku Koro ni Chiru - Ep. 6 Dawn of the golden witch

[LyricalAura]

Here's a thought... What if the "furniture" Shannon and Kanon are distinct from the "real" Shannon and Kanon? They might be adopting characters that are different versions of themselves for the purposes of the fake death charade.

Actually this would explain Genji calling himself furniture as well, now that I think of it.

[Judoh]

Originally Posted by Oliver

So can anyone tell me, what exactly is the magic that is required to combine multiple furniture characters into a single soul? What do they have to lie about?!

I've been trying to come up with something sensible for the past couple of hours with no good results.

Contrary to what your saying. Isn't the usual explanation for shkanon the idea that everyone except shkanon are lying about them?

Renall you can pull up that picture now

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Actually this would explain Genji calling himself furniture as well, now that I think of it.

Does he call himself furniture? I don't remember many instances where he does. I think he usually goes by 'servant to Kinzo' more than he does furniture.

[Oliver]

The question is, why is it magic? Magic is distortion of the unobserved. I put the candy into the cup, lie about not doing it, and this is magic because candy appears out of thin air in this manner.

So what can possibly be magical about saying the truth, that is, that these three characters are just a single confused person?....

[ElderKain]

Originally Posted by Jan-Poo

Don't you have the same exact problems with Kanon? Who killed him? When? How?

I've seen many saying that "Erika killed Kanon" so why not "Erika killed Battler"? Anyway a suicide, or a incident works as well.

The point of "this isn't how Battler wanted this storyline to progress" is moot. At the time Beatrice had to come up with a solution to the logic error the story wouldn't progress anymore, everything was going to be resolved with a duel.

lol, if Erika was the Culprit, then the Culprit X in the earlier games could be proven if Erika was in hiding, and never made herself public like in the games 5 & 6.

Edit: Only problem with that idea of mine , is that would violate Knox's 1st.
Knox's 1st: "It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. "

[crazysjd89]

I don't think Battler could be declared dead after Erika decalred she killed the other 5, for two reasons.

The most important being that Battler's plan probably revolved around one of those 6 going around and doing things that seem like mysteries to trick Erika. If he declared himself dead, he would have to completely redo the entire rest of the story.


The debatable one is that, it might create a logic error with how the letter got outside the guesthouse.

[LyricalAura]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Does he call himself furniture? I don't remember many instances where he does. I think he usually goes by 'servant to Kinzo' more than he does furniture.

At the very least, he has been referred to as furniture on a number of occasions.

There's also Battler's accusation that he was acting like a robot in EP2...

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by LyricalAura

Here's a thought... What if the "furniture" Shannon and Kanon are distinct from the "real" Shannon and Kanon? They might be adopting characters that are different versions of themselves for the purposes of the fake death charade.

That would work... If you can find a strict way to define which of this the red truth refers to. Otherwise, it's the end, nothing to analyse.

Originally Posted by Judoh

Contrary to what your saying. Isn't the usual explanation for shkanon the idead that everyone except shkanon are lying about them?

My point is that for them to combine into a single soul they would have to stop lying, which is contrary to the definition of magic.

I.e. I am trying to piece Shkanon together within itself and find it internally contradictory.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

So what can possibly be magical about saying the truth, that is, that these three characters are just a single confused person?....

Maybe that they're not a single confused person, unaware of this arrangement, and to become any of the people they're pretending to be requires lying about the "true body's" motives?

For instance, if Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all fake roles created by "True Beatrice," an individual who poses as all three but does not consider him/herself any of them and thus would have to lie to him/herself in order to become any one of them permanently.

[Klashikari]

Originally Posted by Judoh

Does he call himself furniture? I don't remember many instances where he does. I think he usually goes by 'servant to Kinzo' more than he does furniture.

He does, in several instances.
First one in Episode 1:

"...Probably. However, that has nothing to do with furniture like us. ......We must return the favor that we received from the Master...until our final moments."

".........I do not know. ...Only, I think everything is as the Master hoped, as he has arranged. ......To distrust that would exceed my role as furniture working for the Master."

[DgBarca]

Erika's red about killing the first 5 is I properly re-killed them.
re-killed...of course, the number of people is 17. She couldn't have killed them the first time, she killed them in a meta-world layer.

So there is still the culprit running in the mansion...

But...hey...3 bodies...Shkanon doesn't explain how 3 person were is the guest room at a point of the time...

Or Erika's dead corpse was in this room.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

Maybe that they're not a single confused person, unaware of this arrangement, and to become any of the people they're pretending to be requires lying about the "true body's" motives?

For instance, if Shannon, Kanon, and Beatrice are all fake roles created by "True Beatrice," an individual who poses as all three but does not consider him/herself any of them and thus would have to lie to him/herself in order to become any one of them permanently.

Doesn't quite work. All three characters are numerously said to be capable of experiencing love. Marriage is a social construct. For a successful marriage, the hypothetical "True Beatrice" would just need to turn off all characters except one, which requires no lying, even to themselves, if these extra characters can be presented to the public at all.

That is, she would need to kill them within herself, but there would still be nothing magical about it.

[crazysjd89]

Erika said that all the people were alive until she killed them. I think saying 're killed' was only said in mocking.

[DgBarca]

Originally Posted by crazysjd89

Erika said that all the people were alive until she killed them. I think saying 're killed' was only said in mocking.

But this is red...re-killed would mean that they were killed one time...Or red is more flexible than that ? Don't like it.

[Renall]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Doesn't quite work. All three characters are numerously said to be capable of experiencing love. Marriage is a social construct. For a successful marriage, the hypothetical "True Beatrice" would just need to turn off all characters except one, which requires no lying, even to themselves, if these extra characters can be presented to the public at all.

That is, she would need to kill them within herself, but there would still be nothing magical about it.

How does it not work? It's a variant Shkanon in which none of the personalities are reflections of the real body. This isn't a multiple personalities thing. It's a conscious decision to say "I, True Beatrice, will renounce being True Beatrice and commit to the lie that is Kanon/Shannon/Beato."

The lie is that the original person was never Kanon or Shannon or Beatrice. None of those people ever really existed, but could "come into existence" by True Beatrice committing to one of them. Otherwise, all relationships are doomed to fail, because True Beatrice does not actually intend for any of them to continue existing.

It's a variant of Shkanon, and I'm only slightly more comfortable with it than any other, but I don't see how it has any particular pitfalls in that respect. If we divorce the real person from any of his/her personas, a lie is required for one of those personas to be given "real" existence.

[DgBarca]

I wonder if the love duel would have still took place if Beato hadn't come in...because...hum well...

The broch is in two part...
Beatrice, Kanon and Shannon makes three part...one must be eliminated...
Like this it looks like Shannon is the one who lose the love duel...right ?

[chronotrig]

Ah, Oliver, thanks! I was meaning to comment on that at some point since I didn't notice it until translating EP6.

Yes, it does require a kind of magic for Kanon, Shannon, or Beatrice to be chosen. It doesn't deny the Shkanon theory, but actually makes it even stronger.


What is magic? Is it a lie? There's a discussion between Ange and Featherine that basically says "that definition of magic works for Beato's pranks, but it doesn't explain the miracle that they're dueling for". So, the lie definition of magic isn't complete.

I think the point here is that magic is a 'decoration of the truth'. The easiest way to use it is to tell a lie and fool someone. However, there's another way. You can also convince the person to accept the lie willingly.

In other words, Shannon would have a problem marrying George. George admitted that they chose to have no sex before marriage, but if they did, it would become clear that Shannon's hair and chest were fake (probably). The miracle of magic would be telling George the truth and convincing him that her feelings as Shannon were genuine, and that she can continue to live as that person.

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

So can anyone tell me, what exactly is the magic that is required to combine multiple furniture characters into a single soul? What do they have to lie about?!

I've been trying to come up with something sensible for the past couple of hours with no good results.

The magic of disappearance of course. Kanon and Beatrice magically disappear so a single full soul remains.

Originally Posted by ElderKain

lol, if Erika was the Culprit, then the Culprit X in the earlier games could be proven if Erika was in hiding, and never made herself public like in the games 5 & 6.

Edit: Only problem with that idea of mine , is that would violate Knox's 1st.
Knox's 1st: "It is forbidden for the culprit to be anyone not mentioned in the early part of the story. "

There is also a red that states that Erika never had anything to do in EP1-4.
However Erika still killed at least five people in EP6 that's for certain.

[Oliver]

Originally Posted by Renall

How does it not work? It's a variant Shkanon in which none of the personalities are reflections of the real body. This isn't a multiple personalities thing. It's a conscious decision to say "I, True Beatrice, will renounce being True Beatrice and commit to the lie that is Kanon/Shannon/Beato."

Because then none of these personalities can be said capable of experiencing anything, let alone love. Notice that Zepar and Furfur numerously state that experiencing love is possible for furniture, but proceeding to marriage and commitment isn't.

I say that it doesn't "quite" work instead of "doesn't work" outright because, naturally, multiple degrees of "experiencing" can be imagined, some of which may actually fit in with the speeches. But the more "experiencing" those virtual entities can do, the less it is a lie or magic to become one of them, and the less "experiencing" is involved, the less conflict between them is possible at all.

[Renall]

I have a problem with any Shkanon theory in which we assume one personality is the "original." I am slightly less upset over a notion that all of them are acts. That at least gives us a core character who might have an interesting motive, and potentially allows this person to be several other characters (MF19YA, Other Battler, etc.) or none of those characters (or they could literally be "characters").

[Jan-Poo]

Originally Posted by Oliver

Because then none of these personalities can be said capable of experiencing anything, let alone love. Notice that Zepar and Furfur numerously state that experiencing love is possible for furniture, but proceeding to marriage and commitment isn't.

I say that it doesn't "quite" work instead of "doesn't work" outright because, naturally, multiple degrees of "experiencing" can be imagined, some of which may actually fit in with the speeches. But the more "experiencing" those virtual entities can do, the less it is a lie or magic to become one of them, and the less "experiencing" is involved, the less conflict between them is possible at all.

then what about this. What about the magic of what is just a part-time personality becoming the true personality of that host body removing all the others?