2010-01-15, 01:51 | Link #2882 | |||||
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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From the very start I have mentioned that I am not ready to recommend my friend's unique way of learning Japanese to everyone, since it is exactly an "exceptional case" as you said. But my point was not saying how good his method is. I only meant that some students, however few, may perform better by unconventional learning approaches, as shown by my friend's poor performance in school. Therefore it is not always helpful to force the traditional system on everyone and turn a blind eye on specific circumstances. Quote:
I am neither advocating nor bashing the conventional teaching methods. I was only saying that one should keep an open mind to other people's ways of learning, and examine each method to see which suits their style and goals the best. Sorry if I come across as rude, but your direct and outright comment of "I do not approve of this method" and your perceived image of being an absolute authority on the issue did not leave me with a pleasant feeling. I guess my English comprehension capability has already been thoroughly eroded by my Japanese. Quote:
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That is why I have reiterated countless times that one should identify their ultimate goal first before diving into the language. Contrary to what some people firmly believe, there is no one-size-fits-all approach. A well-planned study approach can certainly reduce the hassles of your journey and lead you to your goal in the shortest time possible. For English-speaking anime fans who aspire to work as anime/manga translators in the future, it may be a good idea to choose a balanced approach with equal focus on both traditional classes and extensive exposure to anime/manga/light novels. Since there is no JE otaku dictionary, to prepare for your future work you need extra effort in loading all those otaku stuff into your brain. If you can skip all classes and still be comfortable with translating anime/manga/light novels in an appropriate manner, then more power to you. Perspective employers do not hire people by the number of hours they spend in language classes, but by how well they perform. For students who fell in love in Japanese literature and plan to pursue postgraduate study in that area in Japan, besides conventional grammar classes they need to pay extra time and effort in ancient vocabulary/grammar and try their best to feel comfortable with archaic text. Writing an undergraduate dissertation in Japanese certainly helps a lot in getting admitted to any postgraduate programme in Japan. But you have to be highly disciplined to brush up your writing to the level of the natives, through daily writing practices and extensive reading of journals. For people who want to become professional freelance translators. It is recommended to get a professional, non-language-study degree, like engineering/law/finance. Develop your Japanese capability simultaneously, with attention to the recent developments of your field in Japan and learn to be comfortable with technical writings (which is very different from news articles and novels of course). After graduation, get some professional training in translating text of your speciality. Remember to offer free translation services to NGO during your study to spice up your CV and gain valuable experience. For people who dream to become corporate zombies and aspire to turn themselves into tiny components of the gigantic corporate machine, a learning approach with extra focus on grammar, business/hierarchy expressions and attention to Japanese current affairs is certainly needed. But on top of that they also need to be extremely comfortable with the Japanese business culture as well as their prudent manner of exchange and pesuasion. You certainly don't want to stand out as a nosy and arrogant gaijin who is ignorant of your boss/colleagues/clients' feelings, since in the Japanese society "what stands out must be hammered down." Simply speaking, learning Japanese is more than learning the Japanese language. Besides attending classes regularly, think more about what you want to achieve, make a good study plan and challenge your limits. You will be surprised at how much you can accquire in one or two year's time, when compared to your classmates who are satisfied with staying in the comfort zone of weekly grammar classes and reluctant to move an inch beyond that. For every "exceptional case" I met who got JLPT1 in less than 2 years, there are another three who have spent 5+ years on the language and still can't get a JLPT2. However those "exceptional cases" are certainly not the most brilliant people on earth and many of them are just average Janes and Joes you can see in the streets. Call me retarded if you like, but I believe that everyone has the capability of becoming "exceptional." What matters are only will and dedication.
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-01-15 at 03:32. |
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2010-01-16, 10:50 | Link #2883 |
Clamotgun
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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what does ムッサイ means....I couldn't find its's meaning in edict or any online...dictionaries...but what I could infer from the sentences on internet was that it could mean "macho" but I am not sure at all. Also I found similar words whose meanings caouldn't be found in dictionary. except for one. "mossai"
モッサイ: unfashionable ドッサイ : ??? マッサイ: ??? can the natives from japan, please give me the meanings of those work. 頼むよ。 |
2010-01-17, 13:15 | Link #2886 | ||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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First and foremost, I want to discourage people from the illusion that once you pick up a book, it'll help you learn. Language just doesn't work that way. We're not talking about simple matters of grammar + vocabulary, we're talking about the necessity of learning to think in an entirely different way. You don't have to be a hardcore linguistic relativist to even understand this: languages are a window to thought. With such interesting differences between cognition in individuals that speak just the same language, think about how much you need to learn of another culture in order to truly benefit from something as abstract as a novel. It's all text, and sometimes very referential and metaphorical. Master the language first before you delve into deeper than the surface. Now, I'll also admit I was generalizing a bit much when I said all novels are bad. In fact, I read light novels quite often in order to work on my Japanese. I also spend 5-6 hours a day bathing in Japanese, from music to anime to chatting with people, while at the same time taking courses. That's not the same for everyone. If you're at the stage where you want to up your Japanese reading level, novels are not a path that one should go down. There are much easier texts to read that simply provide you with more value for your time (i.e. information-oriented communicative texts). This is because many times you need a literal understanding to simply be able to comprehend an entire text. Once you've increased your reading comprehension, afterward it's best to start working on the metaphorical stuff. It saves time. But if you're going to try and learn the language from a children's book, you're severely underestimating the knowledge that children have and possess, even though they can't use sophisticated language to express it. Quote:
I'm not saying you can't customize your schedule or training regimen. But I am trying to seriously convey to others the mistaken idea that novels are an effective way to learn. They're great when you reach a certain level (closer to fluency), but there are simply better sources to learn from. It doesn't matter if you're learning inside a classroom or outside; it doesn't matter if you only like a certain aspect of Japan or Japanese culture. There are global sources to optimally learn from no matter your interests. What I'm emphasizing here is not that everyone should go to class and learn from teachers, I'm emphasizing that novels are simply a less effective method of increasing reading comprehension. You've mistaken me for Confucius. I myself arrived at my current level of knowledge because of unconventional ways of learning Japanese, so I do support focusing on one's hobbies and self-tailoring their learning. But that doesn't change the fact that newspaper articles use words much more literally (for purposes of communicating information) than, say, a novel would. It's not about the classes. It's about understanding which sources help you achieve your goal faster than others. By all means, get out of your comfort zone. But novels are complex, and have just far too many more confounds and some other materials. That's what I'm trying to say. Learn to walk before you learn to pole vault. |
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2010-01-17, 15:20 | Link #2887 | ||
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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I've skipped most of the long posts so far so I'm sorta jumping in... I might be repeating things that have already been said, but...
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I just think you're giving the people who want to learn Japanese, or any foreign language, a little less credit than they deserve. People are capable of metacognition. People can think about what they learn, and they can think about thinking, and of course learn the same information in many different ways. People are capable of seeing a metaphor, seeing less-than-literal language, recognizing it, and thinking, "Okay, that's a metaphor, that's not literal, and I can simultaneously understand it in its literal sense and its figurative sense." People can see a cultural reference and think, "That's a cultural reference," and heck if they're motivated enough they'll go look it up and gain some more understanding. What works for you and suits your style of thinking may not work for others, and what you might think would be difficult and misleading to learn from, others could benefit from. And in the end I'm of the general opinion that there's no such thing as bad exposure to a language. So maybe that's just me, maybe that's just the way I like to learn, personally. *shrug*
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2010-01-17, 22:12 | Link #2889 | |||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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I'm not claiming people are too dumb to figure out metaphors. If you're dead-set on figuring out the metaphors in a book, then be my guest; it's a great way to learn. But it also requires thinking about the sentence, understanding both literal and figurative elements, then attaching it to appropriate mental imagery. Sometimes you have to find a native or someone better than you to explain it. Compared to this, does it not make sense to teach words and grammar in a straightforward way, then rely on exposure so people can later attach meaning to those words via metaphor? Learning both of them takes a lot of effort. By the way, just because we all have 5 senses, it doesn't mean our worlds and experiences are the same. The smallest difference in your brain can mean the biggest change in experience. Last edited by Kylaran; 2010-01-18 at 02:28. |
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2010-01-17, 22:30 | Link #2890 | |||
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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2010-01-17, 23:48 | Link #2891 |
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Okay I guess I can't really give any technical/psychological input to the debate given I am a complete layman in those areas . But still I am more on the side of "there is no bad exposure to a language".
Correct me if I am wrong, Kylaran, but you seem to be kind of worrying that people would take novel (1)beyond their level of fluency (2)as their sole source of grammar and vocabulary as well as reading comprehension practice. I would agree with you if the circumstances are completely identical to the above, given novels indeed don't serve as good grammar guides given the lack of explanations and examples. But in reality, both are non-issues in my opinion. For (1), people read novels because they enjoy them, not because they feel obligated to read them. If they fail to understand a majority of a story for whatever reason, due to boredom they will immediately drop it anyway. They will then continue to search for books of lower levels until they find one they truly enjoy, and would then start progressing slowing and steadily upward again. An ideal novel would have a level of difficulty that matches the readers' fluency in the language. They should be able to grasp the main ideas with minimal use of dictionaries and grammar guides. If they are dedicated enough, they would study the vocabulary, cultural references and etc more closely. At the end they will become more knowledgeable than before on a number of areas, and find the learning experience a highly rewarding one. For (2), since it is comparatively difficult to pick up new grammar from novels, I would assume people who read novels should be of an intermediate level, and they aim to learn new vocabulary and expressions to complement their conventional study in classes. People who are far below the required level of grammatical fluency will search downwards, as I explained before, until they find the book that suits them. Regardless of the effectiveness (or lack thereof) of novels as grammar learning materials, they provide a more extensive selection of vocabulary that is beyond your normal classroom materials. News articles are meant for conveying facts as accurate as possible, while novels shine for the purpose of conveying feelings and emotions. At the end of the day you need skills learnt from both to survive in a Japanese environment. No one like to see a news-report robot in a friendly gathering, or a bard in a formal business conference. When I was learning English (as a second language) in secondary school, it was required for everyone in the class to submit a book report every month. I am sure such practice is by no means unique to our school. Teachers surely wouldn't find the extra workload fun. But they should have been believing that reading books is in some way beneficial to the students, and such benefits justify the extra hassles for them to mark the book reports. Furthermore, while half of my English textbook is essays and non-fictional articles, another half is short stories and novel excerpts. As "ineffective" as those mini novels, I suppose the linguists and educational psychologists responsible for planning the curriculum should have some reason behind including those materials.
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-01-18 at 03:25. Reason: Typed "there is no bad exposure to a language" as "there is bad exposure to a language" =_= |
2010-01-18, 02:54 | Link #2892 | |||||
A Priori Impossibility
Join Date: Mar 2008
Location: California
Age: 33
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As I said, novels are hard. Stay away from them, unless you're ready. You'll get bored and give up, and it'll negatively affect your drive to learn the language. Quote:
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You're still misunderstanding my main goal. I want to emphasize that there are very effective ways of learning Japanese will most likely help anyone from a beginning to an intermediate level. Children's novels are a terrible choice to study from. Some people may decide that they want to give it a shot, that's fine. In fact, I support that decision. But if people are going to ask me for a recommendation on improving reading comprehension, I would be very hesitant to suggest novels. I'm not going to disturb the thread anymore with my highly opinionated and charged posts; I've said enough. :P If either of you or Raiga would like to talk, I'd love to in private. |
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2010-01-18, 08:03 | Link #2894 | ||||||||||
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Anyhow, novel recommendations only work for the target audience. Trust the automatic selection mechanism. Quote:
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Last edited by Doraneko; 2010-01-18 at 08:15. |
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2010-01-23, 01:53 | Link #2895 |
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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Haihai, got a question...
What does 濃ゆ mean? I can't seem to find it in the dictionary... funnily enough, Google turns up an article that appears to be about the fact that it's not in the dictionary... (then again I was lazy on that count and used Google translate for the article. I know, for shame)
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2010-01-23, 12:01 | Link #2896 |
The Owl of Minerva
Join Date: Apr 2006
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Not too sure about 濃ゆ, but do you mean 濃ゆい(こゆい)? Apparently 濃ゆい is from the regional dialects, meaning exactly the same as 濃い.
茨城弁講座『こゆい(濃ゆい)』とは? 「濃ゆい」 - Yahoo!知恵袋
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2010-01-23, 12:48 | Link #2897 | |
tl;dr
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 32
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2010-01-31, 04:13 | Link #2900 | |
Clamotgun
Join Date: Jul 2009
Location: UK
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