2011-02-21, 18:17 | Link #8041 | ||
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
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Mikoto has absolutely no idea about how deep the darkness of AC really is, until she finds out about the sisters Quote:
His point is that in the few instances in which Mikoto could have been involved in the main fight of the arc, the author used a convenient plot hole to keep her away from it Now, realistically, the only novels in which Mikoto could have taken part in the main battle(s) are novel 3, 6, 8, 13 and 16(so, yeah, not nearly as many as he claims). In two of them(3 and 13) she DID take part in it in a way, so there was no plot hole keeping her away. In novel 8 she never got a chance to fight Awaki at all in the end as accelerator took her out first, and did play her role throughout the novel. Meaning the only real instances in which Mikoto was kept away from the battle are novels 6 and 16, which are in fact the two novels in which he's claiming Kamachi used plot holes to keep her out of it Last edited by giorno; 2011-02-21 at 18:28. |
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2011-02-21, 18:19 | Link #8042 | |
SHSL Lurker
Join Date: Apr 2010
Location: Academy City
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You can definitely argue that she's encountered the dark side a few times with the experiments in Railgun and the SISTERs project, yes. But the fact remains that overall she's still just a normal girl with powers. If she was truly immersed in the dark side of Academy City, she would have turned into someone like Awaki. Mikoto has shown that she does not have fighting experience and endurability, and I think you should stop overestimating the abilities of a middle school girl.
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2011-02-21, 18:48 | Link #8043 | ||
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Join Date: Dec 2010
Location: France
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Besides, what was said before was a bit like "when Mikoto sees blood she goes batshit crazy and suicides" or something like that. This was the prejudice I was talking about Quote:
There's margin between 0 and 100 |
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2011-02-21, 18:53 | Link #8044 | |
Banned
Join Date: Jan 2009
Age: 34
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There a difference betweem knowing and being part of said "world" and this series goes around te "darkness world".
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Of course the are but her mentality is her own limit. Never took in account to ask for help and in the bridge it she said so to herself. She had the luck to get Touma's help to solve her problem. |
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2011-02-21, 19:13 | Link #8045 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Apr 2009
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to be entirely fair to Mikoto, that was the first time she actually got involved with that, and it hit her personally, too...
you'd think by now she should be able to deal with that kind of stuff better than that(in fact, i think this is one of the main problems with the writing: most characters are far too adaptable to situations which should normally mentally overwhelm them) |
2011-02-21, 20:23 | Link #8046 | |
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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2011-02-21, 22:08 | Link #8047 | |||||||||||
Crazy Devout Fanboy
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1st Ra Cailum-class battleship Ra Cailum, port-side officer's bunks
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Spoiler for Wilfriback:
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I enjoy a good debate every now and then. (provided neither side gets to insults ) Spoiler for giorno:
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But let's consider that she doesn't have skills (whch she dooes, but let's assume she doesn't); Mugino and Frenda of ITEM do. So a complete novice used skills, tactics, and creative thinking to own two experienced fighters, at least one of them a skilled tactician, and the other a powerful Esper? That's even better, because Mikoto would only be even more capable with more experience, then. Have Stiyl watch a close friend get brutally murdered like Mikoto saw one of her MISAKA clones get brutally murdered against Accelerator. If you honestly expect Stiyl to keep his calm, then we're not watching/reading the same title. Just because Mikoto would go more "crazy" than Stiyl probably would doesn't make her less competent for having a harsher reaction; Kenshin Himura, Vash the Stampede, and fighters with (initially) less experience like Ichigo Kurosaki go BALISTIC when they see innocents get killed or even just hurt a little. It doesn't hinder them at all. Quote:
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"A plot device is an object or character in a story whose sole purpose is to advance the plot of the story, or alternatively to overcome some difficulty in the plot." Doesn't quite apply; Mikoto's absence or inclusion wouldn't affect the overall plot in either direction. (her inclusion would just make more sense; character consistency and lack of plot holes) But I just like debating something once in a while, not starting an actual argument. So if you guys are getting tired of this or anything, I can shut up and agree to disagree. At the time, I originally just came online to post new info on Jinki: Extend Relation and Karin in the manga section from the two issues of Dragon Age I got in.
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2011-02-21, 22:57 | Link #8048 | |
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Join Date: Aug 2010
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1)For the record, Mikoto was taking down small-fries that went to hit on her, or just usual, relatively harmless punks that is mainly all talk and can't back it up with power. Touma, on the other hand, was fighting Level 0s with weapons and guns at times just to save a person that asked for help. It's not like how he get dragged into incidents such as the SISTERs or Aureolus Izzard on a weekly basis after losing his memories, but he was involved enough to know the in's and out's of street fighting. Heck, even in Vol13 he mentioned off-hand to Accelerator over LO's phone that District 7 has a back alley where people meet up to brawl. To borrow 'Sasha-speak', Answer 1: Touma have been in more dangerous fights compared to Mikoto, not taking the things after meeting Index into account. 2)'Mikoto grew up like a normal girl': I would say that's 100% correct. Came from a well-off family (not filthy rich like others, but still fairly well off), a good childhood, and far removed from any problems she can't handle alone to begin with. That all changed after seeing the SISTERs, but before that her childhood was a good one. And as to others: On the topic of Mikoto being a liability or not (or has the argument moved on? laying out the current argued points of both sides in 'Sasha-speak' would be greatly appreciated ), I'll have to mention the point that the magicians Touma works with are 'professionals' - people that sees as their duty to make amatuers like Touma not get involved as very important. IMO, Toaruverse magicians are like Nasu-verse magus, minus the amorality when it comes to involving civilians (ie, Nasu-verse magus can involve civilians all they like, as long as the existence of magic is not revealed) ; They are willing to kill or be killed if these situations arise, and people like Touma, Kaori and the Amakusa are the exception, and NOT the rule. Stiyl have even mentioned at one point it's only after Touma got involved with the Magic Side that members of Necessarius started to get along with one another. Now, I'll bring that back to Mikoto: Mikoto are brought up as a normal girl, albeit one with esper powers and one of the top Seven of AC. She does NOT have the same resolves as some of these magicians. I won't go on about the shounen idea that 'more willpower = greater chance of defeating your opponent', but as Mikoto hesitates about killing/wounding others she'd probably be taken down by someone who's weaker, has more experience and is willing to use those experience to win. And that's just the usual magicians like Sherry, and not 'monster-class' like Acqua. And on the point of Mikoto not helping Touma when he went after Acqua: Mikoto at the point was too overwhlemed by the discovery of her feelings towards Touma. I believe the word is 'epiphany'? She was struggling to come to terms with her own self, her conflicting views, and to accept her own feelings; that would take time. And I'd say these things take time to sort out. |
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2011-02-21, 23:47 | Link #8049 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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"A plot device is a low-energy means of fulfilling the requirements of dramatic necessity, without having to develop the plot or characters much." or "A plot device is an object or character in the story whose purpose is purely to drive the plot or resolve situations. It could be something everybody wants to obtain, a device that must be destroyed, or an annoying teenager who must be protected at all costs." And going by the very thing you quoted from Wikipedia, a plot device was used to prevent Mikoto from engaging in fights she may have been able to participate in. The 'difficulty' to overcome in the plot was somehow not getting Mikoto involved. Therefore a plot device was used to get her out of the way. For v6, it was Kuroko's characterization, the squabble between Index and Mikoto, and Sphinx running away from Mikoto due to the magnetic waves she unconsciously emits. Is this convenient? Yes. Is this a plot hole? Nope because these factors were explained in the story. For v16, it was the revelations of her newfound feelings for Touma and her respect for his opinion that it was 'his fight' to fight, and also probably due to Runes and whatnot the Amakusa and Acqua? put in place to keep civilians out of the way. Note that while Mikoto is a L5, she is still a civilian and probably doesn't have much in terms of magical resistance so those runes should easily affect her. Somebody else may be able to explain this better? Anyway is this convenient? Yes. Is this a plot hole? Nope because these were pretty well explained in the story. Quote:
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2011-02-21, 23:55 | Link #8050 | |
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Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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I don't know where this hesitate from wounding/killing people mentality that people seem to automatically input into her character comes from, but she did 'causally' fight a Railgun into a squad of Hound Dog without worries. And from those punks we know that she's more than happy to lay down the hurt, so wounding isn't an issue. I would like to see the guy would can get up from a taser to the chest.
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2011-02-21, 23:57 | Link #8051 | |||||||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: 1st Ra Cailum-class battleship Ra Cailum, port-side officer's bunks
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Most of these points actually have been brought up already, so I'll just give a brief on my responses:
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For fights like with Acqua, I don't dispute at all that they'd want to keep her out, but unless a barrier was put up in advance, or Acqua was the one to put it up, then they'd have their hands full getting owned by Acqua and not really having time to keep Mikoto out of the fight. But I'd have been perfectly satisfied if she had tried to go after him and had been stopped by a magic barrier to keep people out. Of course, unless this barrier was designed to let Touma in, or re-cast after Touma got in, he'd have to break it down with Imagine Breaker anyway to get to the fight, thus allowing Mikoto access. Still, like I said my main burn with this specific scene is that she just stood back there and watched him leave. (that turned out a bit longer than I intended ) Quote:
Again, the idea that she doesn't have much experience is nothing more than baseless assumption (no offense) that conflicts with material we have seen, namely battles in Railgun. There are people who definitely have more experience yes, but those people are pretty much the cream of the crop; few people have more experience than them. (Fiamma, Vento, Acqua, etc.) Not willing to kill has hardly ever been a detrimental factor to any character in anime; in fact, a lot of action anime characters don't kill at all. Not to mention, control of electricity is one of the best abilities to have for non-killing, and if your stun bolts aren't hitting or affecting your opponent, the problem isn't a desire not to kill. Quote:
When you realize you love somone, you don't just watch their battered body limping off to a major battle; her "conflict" about why he fought had been answered, and she had accepted her feelings for him. Quote:
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Again, if you guys just don't want to bother with the debate anymore, I can just shut up now.
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Last edited by Shinji103; 2011-02-22 at 00:15. |
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2011-02-22, 01:01 | Link #8052 | |||
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Join Date: Jul 2007
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So yeah don't respond to this so I can happily go back to lurking! |
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2011-02-22, 03:04 | Link #8055 | |
We're Back
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Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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It's the natural abilities of Elves, just by being around them you slowly evolve to compensate for whatever weakness.
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2011-02-22, 03:19 | Link #8058 |
just some guy
Join Date: Oct 2007
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Usually abilities like that would be used for fighting. Like Cars from JJBA for example has a evolution ability that allows him to adapt to attacks.
I was just curious about her and her powers is all. edit - I read that wrong. I thought you said that she was the one who evolves, but it's those around her that evolve to gain something that they lack. I really shouldn't ask questions like this at 3 in the morning. |
2011-02-22, 03:22 | Link #8059 | |
We're Back
Join Date: Nov 2006
Location: Redgrave City
Age: 35
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It still doesn't magically let you grow wings and fly, even though it's called [Evolution Acceleration], it's still a slow and small process, like growing immunity to certain diseases.
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action, dengeki bunko, fantasy, light novels, science fiction, shounen |
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