2007-11-21, 20:45 | Link #81 | |||
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Anyway, Moria made Odz beat all the others there. So, it was "definitely" a good choice - or maybe the best choice - at that time. Too bad, for Moria, it didn't work against Luffy. Quote:
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2007-11-22, 01:26 | Link #82 | ||||||||
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I said leaders as in HEAVY HITTERS, not crappy Spandam. And the five old stars looks like they been through some battles so I would not count them out of combat. Quote:
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What? Moria has powers of his own he should have combat abilities of his own to be on that level. HE DID NOT HAVE ODZ HIS ENTIRE CAREER SO PLEASE QUIT ACTING LIKE THAT IS ALL HE CAN DO! Quote:
Luffy in Gears or as Nightmare has NO ANSWER for Crocodile at all. Luffy would get wasted just like in his previous match-ups against Crocodile. |
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2007-11-22, 02:45 | Link #83 | |||
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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And by the way, you seem to ignore Crocodile's poison weapon and use it as an excuse to decide on their level, but you seem pretty careful when the matter comes to Odz. Quote:
Also, no answer to Crocodile? Let me reverse the question towards you. Does Crocodile have an answer for Gear 2 and Gear 3? He had already showed that, he is slow, compared to gear 2, maybe as slow as a turtle compared to rabbit. If you have missed, Crocodile can only escape a hit, if the hit is slower than his reaction time to turn to sand. That is "NOT" the case against the current Luffy. At his age Crocodile was already past his expiration date. |
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2007-11-22, 03:07 | Link #84 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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It doesn't matter if Luffy lost the first 2 times he faced croc... fact of the matter is that Luffy proved he was capable of beating croc and Luffy has been growing in power ever since... If Luffy did it once he can do it again; especially since he has grown stronger since then Quote:
and tell me... If the sword has no power of it's own, then why would Zoro need to train to control the sword? And your statement does not change the fact that Zoro was surpirsed at how effective his attack was, as in, before he aquired Ryumma's sword, he never performed such an attack before... he practially said that Ryumma's sword made the difference in power. Let's look at another Zoro quote... Zoro after using his cursed blade to cut through a stone hammer Zoro: So! This one cut's through Stone! The Sungdai Kitetsu Blade is Remarkably Sharp! A Good Sword that cuts whatever the weilder wishes to cut. This sword might cause problems for me. Zoro complments the sword's sharpness (one of the factors that determine a sword's power), is surpirsed that he cut through stone with that attack (if it was all about him alone, then he should NOT be surprised by his own abilities), and believes he might have trouble controling the blade... all things that talk about the sword's power here's another quote from right after Zoro met Ryuma Zoro: "That katana... seems pretty STRONG." oh my... whatever could Zoro mean by that line really now... if legendary swords did not have power of their own, then why would Zoro want to take Ryuma's sword when he can just take any common sword and be just as strong? Hell considering how Zoro claims he's gonna need to train in order to use the sword properly, why should he bother learning how to handle the sword when he can just get a common sword and be just as strong. Zoro has made it loud and clear that sword's DO have a power of their own... weight, density, the type of metal, the sharpness, the quality of the worksmanship, the length and width of the blade... all these are qualities that sperate swords from one another and these are the qualities that determine the sword's strength. Quote:
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2007-11-22, 21:34 | Link #85 |
Junior Member
Join Date: Sep 2004
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It's good that Moria gets beaten so quick. I wonder how fast Nightmare Luffy was moving compared to Oz and Moria. My guess is that time was slowed down per panel, but if it's real time then it took a couple of seconds for Oz to get beat. Otherwise, the Hammer wouldn't have hit Moria but Moria's shadow instead.
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2007-11-23, 03:38 | Link #86 | ||||||||
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Who was the Shichibukai? QUIT ACTING AS IF MORIA HAD ODZ HIS ENTIRE CAREER CAUSE HE DIDN'T. Quote:
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2007-11-23, 05:55 | Link #87 | ||||||
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2) Saying that Zoro and Ryuuma are of the same strength does not make much sence cause in the end Zoro won... even if you say that the swords had no influence in the fight, by your assumption that they are of same strength, the fight should have either ended in a draw, or at the least Zoro would be too worn out to move on to fighting Oz (kinda like how Luffy was so worn out he couldn't even move after his fight with Lucchi)... it's pretty obvious that Zoro was the better swordsman 3) it doesn't matter since Kunia's sword is one of the 21 legendary blades like Ryuuma's... your arguement is that Zoro has weaker swords, but the same strength as Ryuma and still won, but according to my logic Ryuuma should have won for having a better sword... however, as it turns out, Ryumma's sword and Kunia's sword are quite possibly on similar levels (kinda makes sence when you considering her sword was the only one not to be borken by Mihawk's attack); probably not the same level, but between the combined strength of Kunia's sword and the cursed sword the power comes close enough that it doesn't give Ryuma a clear sword advantage... that in addition to Zoro being the better swordsman still gives him the win Oh By the way, i absolutly love how you completly IGNORED the rest of my post, specifically the quotes directly from Zoro that indicate that swords DO have strength of their own. care to go back and refute those? Quote:
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Last edited by Slayerx; 2007-11-23 at 06:57. |
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2007-11-23, 20:46 | Link #89 | |||||
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Again, you gave quotes of Zoro talking about the QUALITY of the blade not that it has RAW power of it's own and it shoots magical projectiles. Quote:
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2007-11-23, 23:30 | Link #90 | ||
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2007-11-24, 06:13 | Link #91 | |||||
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Join Date: Dec 2005
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no it wasn't... the fight was changing course, the strawhats were finding ways to move on the offesive and damage Oz... however, once Moria started supporting Oz, the battle changed in that the strawhats were now on a nearly full defensive. Oz being able to stretch added more speed and power to his attacks causeing the strawhats to concetrate more on keeping alive... any attempts that they made at offence resulted in them getting KO'd by Oz and Moria. and unlike the fight when it was just Oz fighting, the strawhats didn't get back up
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Also you seemed to ignore the part of my post that pointed out that even IF they were the same strength, it wouldn't support your argument because their may not be a strong difference in the strength of the swords that Ryuma and Zoro were using... both Ryuma's sword and Kunia's sword are from the 21 legendary swords, and Zoro is fighting not only with Kunia's sword, but with also with his cursed sword, practilly combining their might Quote:
The quality of the blade is what determines it's strength... a sword that is sharper, heavier, made out of better material, made with better skill and so forth is STRONGER than a sword that is duller, lighter, made of poor material, and made with less skilled hands... if two swordsman of ABSOLUTLY equal strength were to clash, so equal that they literally trade blow for blow, the swordsman with the better quality sword will win out, because not only will he be able to use more power than the other swordsman, but the other swordsman's sword will be quicker to break... think about it... an exteme example would be a sword made of Diamond and a sword made of steel... which can cut through stell more easily? the diamond since it is made of harder material; both swords in the hands of a good swordsman can cut through steel, but it it is much easier for the diamond sword... and if cutting through steel is easy for the diamond sword that means the diamond sword can go even furthar... the swordsman, using the steel sword mihgt find it impossible to cut through diamond no matter how hard he tries, but by using the same effort he did with the steel sword, the diamond sword would be able to cut through the diamond... that's just an exteme example, but it does illustrate the difference a sword can make Quote:
and you seem to be loosing track of the arguements... me pointing out that Moria is alloud to have a subordinate stronger then himself came off of your claim that a captain should NEVER have a subordinate stronger then himself... nothing more as for how Moria gained his status as a shichibukai and proved that he is one... i pointed that out much eariler in the thread WITHOUT mentioning Oz I'll repeat from before -Ability to deliver an instant KO to someone worth ATLEAST 80 million bounty; very high possibility he can do it to someone of much higher bounty aswell -Able to create undying zombies that are far tougher then they were when they were alive -Having the absolute loyalty of said zombies -A technic that allows him block attacks with him needing to lift a finger -Ability to dodge attacks by switching places with his shadow -using the zombies that he created with his power, and using his instant KO move, he managed to KO Luffy, Zoro, and Sanji without much effort (480 million bounty), and was in perfect position to kill all three of them; a feat only comparable to Crocodile and your only method for refuting all that was the point that Moria got beaten in a few panels, thus rendering all my points moot... however that is a ridiculous point in that how Moria got beaten does not at all render those points moot since those are all FACTS about Moria... these were the kind of facts that the world' gov't were considering when they made Moria a shichibukai... that the minions created by Moria's power and in service to Moria were capable of capturing high profile targets; that Moria's abilities make it easy for him to instantly KO high profile fighters; that Moria's powers make him difficult to defeat for anyone below the 300 million mark... What's moot, is bringing up his defeat as evidence as to why Moria isn't a shichibukai... cause when it comes down to it, he was beaten by nightmare Luffy. Luffy alone had a bounty close to that of Moria, and thus, in theory was pretty close to Moria's level... however, Nightmare Luffy was several times stronger than Moria, his strength was off the charts... where as Luffy was about 300 million, nightmare Luffy might have been more like 600-900million. with THAT kind of power, Moria, and most other high profile characters would probably get KO'd rather quickly Quote:
To dry up Luffy he has to be able to grab hold of Luffy, but gear 2 Luffy has incredible speed that croc could even hope to match |
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2007-11-24, 12:40 | Link #92 |
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Join Date: Sep 2007
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I don't know why some people keep praising Crocodile.
He was awesome on Alabasta arc but when we compare him to current level charecters he simply fails. Enel would utterly destroyed Croc in raw power. Infact I think Enel was strongest fighter yet, he was defeated ONLY because Luffy was ONLY person in world with Rubber body what is immune to electrecity attacks of Enel. Crocodile was SLOW, Crocodile was vulnerable to ANY attack what is affected by liquics; water,blood,wine,spit you name it. CURRENT Luffy with 3 Gears would DESTROY,ANNIHALTE AND RAPE Crocodile. Croc is just too slow to fight vs Gear second Luffy. I don't know why Phenomenom is so dissapointed to Gecko Moria. I think he was pretty damn impressive. He used his devil fruit power to create entire armys, super powerful zombies 101% loyal to him because they were mere extension of his own power. Moria powered OZ has been MOST powerful fighter yet to seen (With exceptions Logia chars, Croc could be phrased only semi-logia because any liquid neutralizes his logia powers reducing him to average fighter). |
2007-11-24, 23:02 | Link #93 | ||||||||
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Zoro was talking about the quality of the sword it's sharpness. Again a skilled swordsman can have a weaker sword than a skilled swordsman with a stronger sword and STILL be better. As you saw with Zoro and Ryumma. Quote:
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Oda has to kill Croco some way but it was limiting Croc in order to get rid of him. |
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2007-11-25, 00:43 | Link #94 | |
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Join Date: Jun 2004
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And, by the way, can Mihawk beat Crocodile? After all, if you assume Luffy's attacks, especially at Gear 2 and 3, wouldn't work against Crocodile's sand, you wouldn't expect swords working against him, even if they are used by the greatest swordsman. I wonder how you will work your way out of this one... |
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2007-11-25, 02:03 | Link #95 |
Senior Member
Join Date: Dec 2005
Location: U.S.
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Wow, so now it the bad writing's fault, then WHY are you still here reading OP?
You take what the author gave you, in this case Oda, unless Oda admit he F#$ed-up on the story, these story element stay facts within the story. Luffy beat Croc by finding weakness to his power, Croc made the mistake of not killing Luffy during their first encounter seald his fate as Luffy found out about his weakness, as such once Luffy is able to beat the shit out of Croc with his bloodied fists, there is no reason why he can't do it again. Remeber what that sniper from Blackbeard's crew said during Ace and BB's duel? He mentioned how he always though DF users are too relient on their power that once you find the weakness to their power they become vulnerable ane easily beatable. Croc is exactly the type of DF user he was talking about. Unlike Luffy, Ace, and every member of CP9, Croc is not a good fighter without his DF power. Granted, he might have more mastery over his power compare to most of other DF users we've seen so far, but once that ability is neutralized he can't do anything but resolve to cheating [Poison]. There is no reason why Luffy can't give Croc the same beating with two bloodied fist and pound him to oblivion if they meet again now he's faster and stronger and with the ability to go in Gear2 and Gear3. Back to Moria and Oz, this fight is different. Luffy only beat Moria because he was drugged up with all the shadows, if the fight were to happen again, Luffy's not going to have Nightmare Luffy power and it'll be a whole new fight. Most importantly, you are one of those people that fell into the the Bounty trap set up by Oda. Bounty is not equal to strength through it can be an indicator for it. It is mainly a reflection on how WG perceive the danger a person poses. based on SBS it is clear that even with BW, Croc's perceive threat level in only about half that of Moria [SBS stated that if WG knows about BW, Croc's Bounty would be in 160 million range]. With 80 millions by himself, the rest of BW post roughly as much a threat as Croc at 80 millions. Now using Phenomenol's logic: If Moria is like you say, a sheep, that can't hold candle to Croc, that means Moria is at most worth only 80 million by himself, therefore, it means his Zombie are considered by WG to pose MUCH BIGGER DANGER to the world at 240 millions, or 3 times what BW poises with all their agents and thousands of members, This in turn IMPLIES that Moria's subordinates are considered stronger than Moria himself, coupled with the fact the Oda made Spandem and his dad leaders of their respective Cipher Pol, shows that you don't have to be strong to be in charge of a unit. Now I agree Moria might not be the heavy hitter that some people thinks, I for one didn't think Moria is that strong coming into the arc and is more relient to his power that ones with actual fighting skill. But after seeing that he's able to doge Luffy's attack and was unharmed after Luffy first found him, I certainly to think he is stronger than Croc, who actually took a beating until he decide to turn his body into sand as show the full scope of the DF power, while Moria have card up his sleeve. The fact that also stands is that with the fight being that one-sided and Luffy has the benefit of the one-time power up, Moria is still a mystery to us, we still don't know Moria's personal fighting power, We don't knwo the full extend of his shadow power, and we still can't figure out the weakness of his DF power coupled with the fact that he is able to kinap Luffy, Sanji and Zoro with eaze and render them unconcious all the while create rough equals of all three speaks volume itself and made him very worthy of being a shikibukai. Last thing, Luffy is already at shikibukai's level in the eye of WG simply by what Kuma has stated, WG is afraid of Luffy deafeating another Shikibukai, if Luffy is not at the smae level as them why would the WG fear another would fall before Luffy. With that being said, Rob Lucchi is definitely considered by WG as a Shikibukai-level weapon at their disposal. Remeber, CP9 is consider to be Marines' last line of defense of thier HQ and their other 'Ace in the hole' along with Buster Call, and current CP9 was said to be the strongest incarnation of the unit and Rob Lucchi himself is consider an icon/legend and the strongest amoung the strongest by the Marines. By saying that Luffy is not at their level is simply blind. |
2007-11-25, 08:36 | Link #96 | |
CP10
Join Date: Feb 2006
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Fully agreed.According to him shichibukai is a god,has **000000 bounty,cant be beaten,has uber sword.blah balh..all baseless crap theories..Just how can you think that crocodile can beat Luffy with what he is now.crocodile wont even able to see it coming.A glass of water and he is dead..It is meaningless to give "logia cant be damaged lawl you use item lol" as a proof For more information: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fanboy reminds you of someone? |
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2007-11-25, 09:11 | Link #97 |
Socially Inept
Join Date: Nov 2003
Location: Retracing my steps.....
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Phenomenal you are forgetting something really important about Croc. He isn't made of sand. He has to react and turn into sand in order to dodge a blow. Luffy in gear 2 would just appear behind him and cave his skull before he has a chance to change into sand. It really wouldn't even be a contest, it's kinda weak of you to even still be trying to say Croc would even scratch the present day Luffy. It's pretty silly actually. Sorry.
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2007-11-25, 14:40 | Link #98 |
Senior Member
Join Date: May 2007
Location: U.S.A.
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Good chapter, Nightmare Luffy is too cool. Now to see the whole outcome of this since it does seems that Luffy defeated Moria. Kuma was still on the island right? because it was never shown if he left or stayed so he could have see Moria be defeated and even tell Luffy about Ace and Blackbeard
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2007-11-25, 20:30 | Link #99 | ||||||
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NOONE IN ONE PIECE CAN HARM A LOGIA (besides Blackbeard/Seastone)so how the hell is a Gear 2 Luffy going to hurt Crocodile when he could easily drain him dry? Quote:
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Moria is not a Logia, Crocodile is! Crocodile has superior abilities to moria's it's obvious. Quote:
Sorry, Luffy ain't Shichibukai level, He can't beat Crocodile (a Logia) head up, and if you wanna give Luffy situations stating things like "oh he will have bloody knuckles like before" I can easily say Croco can fight Luffy in the desert and Kill luffy easily. Or how about Crocodlie DRAIN Luffy to death!!!! |
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