Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[Mr. DJ]

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

It is not the 'caring' that is the weakness, it is willingly being ignorant to the situation. If Inoue didn't focus so much on her own feelings and her issues that influences what she does, then she would have figured that it was some sort of trap. She would have been able to sense it at the very least. Inoue didn't believe her friends would come for her after they tried to prove to her she was important to them? I'm not sure how that works. After all that time Inoue should understand the nature of her friends, they aren't people who abandoned those that they care about, especially those they consider their friend. Just because Ichigo had expressed how he feels about Rukia, she reacts in that way, and allowed her friends to come after her to HM, where it is enemy territory. Well then, she sure has made a lot mistakes and have underestimated many things then. That is another reason why she has a weak mind.

You know you pretty much described Ichigo at the same time too right? Remember he was gonna go in all Gung-Ho and pwn everyone by himself w/ help from nobody. He had to be reminded just as much as Orihime did.

[asam_laksa]

Originally Posted by blue skies

Bleach happened because Rukia Kuchiki poked her sword through Ichigo Kurosaki's heart and turned him into a shinigami. Maybe now it's all about the hogyokyu thing, but it was all about Ichigo 'n' Rukia at first. They were the reason for Bleach last time I checked.

Ah, I'm so lazy to type. But don't you agree what Sabaku Kyu is saying in align with yours?

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Simple. Because what has happened (Rukia received more panel time) doesn't cement what's going to happen, especially when you ignore what is happening (Orihime is currently receiving more panel time than Rukia). Roles don't always remain static, even in shounen.

I agree that shippers don't really have right to proclaim Orihime the new heroine of Bleach yet. But at the same time, no one has really has the right to say she's just "the temp" yet.

Except though, I have to disagree with the fact that Bleach pilot has the same cast Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime also. It doesn't exclusively belonged to Ichigo and Rukia only.

I still think it's 'your inner fangirl' talking in disguise under the claimed name 'logic'

[Alea Misa]

Originally Posted by DjTrizz

You know you pretty much described Ichigo at the same time too right? Remember he was gonna go in all Gung-Ho and pwn everyone by himself w/ help from nobody. He had to be reminded just as much as Orihime did.

Uhh, Not quite, the reasons to their actions are a bit different. Ichigo has more of actual reasons behind his feelings. And he has had much more on his plate than Inoue, and not to mention that he climbed his way to be able to improve and grow stronger.

First of all, Ichigo was not the one threw himself into the situation to willingly lay down and be captured by the order of his ENEMY, like Inoue had. And I’m pretty sure if he was in that situation, he would fight and die fighting, he would never betray, and never put his friends in that situation like Inoue had. Do not forget that. Inoue is not much like Ichigo since he is much more consistent and truer to his word than Inoue, as he made a promise to protect his friends, and he actually took the steps to try to achieve his goals. He has had to fight his weaknesses, eliminate them, change himself to improve. Orihime says she wants it, but her mentality is still weak, and she has barely done anything to change herself to grow and actually face her issues and her flaws and improve, she has not truly grown. She allows for the enemy to push her around, take advantage of her and her abilities, and allows for them to make it real easy to capture her. In my eyes, she had in that sense betrayed her friends because of her ignorance, her issues, and her weak mind.

[poptart]

Originally Posted by Alea Misa

Uhh, Not quite, the reasons to their actions are a bit different. Ichigo has more of actual reasons behind his feelings. And he has had much more on his plate than Inoue, and not to mention that he climbed his way to be able to improve and grow stronger.

First of all, Ichigo was not the one threw himself into the situation to willingly lay down and be captured by the order of his ENEMY, like Inoue had. And I’m pretty sure if he was in that situation, he would fight and die fighting, he would never betray, and never put his friends in that situation like Inoue had. Do not forget that. Inoue is not much like Ichigo since he is much more consistent and truer to his word than Inoue, as he made a promise to protect his friends, and he actually took the steps to try to achieve his goals. He has had to fight his weaknesses, eliminate them, change himself to improve. Orihime says she wants it, but her mentality is still weak, and she has barely done anything to change herself to grow and actually face her issues and her flaws and improve, she has not truly grown. She allows for the enemy to push her around, take advantage of her and her abilities, and allows for them to make it real easy to capture her. In my eyes, she had in that sense betrayed her friends because of her ignorance, her issues, and her weak mind.

no, it is the same in that both will do whatever they can for their friends and ones they hold dear.

Ichigo would die for his friends if thats what it would take to save them. Orihime is NOT a fighter, so to expect her to have a fighters mentality is beyond confusing. she is a healer, that is her power base. she would no more plan out an aggressive attack plan than Ichigo would opt for the passive role in a fight.

she went with them knowing their power level and how far away from it she was. meaning, even if she hadnt put together that there was a trap, she sacrificed herself for her friends with pain and death as a very good possibility. she just got slapped around by one of them not that long ago.

this is where they are similar and it actually shows her strength of will. she knew she wasnt a fighter. its not as if Uli lured her away with promises of candy and a unicorn tea party. there was no way for her to call out Tsubaki against the guy who she just saw bitchslap Urahara's blade attack away. so she instead did what she thought was best at the time and sacrificed herself for her friends.

because to her, even if it meant she was now in danger, the thought of her friends staying safe and unhurt even for one more day was more important.

she has tried to improve herself. she has learned to heal mulitple people and some really horrible injuries.

even though she is not a fighter she has actively tried to be of assistance in battle. after Tsubaki was torn apart and fixed she trained with Rukia to get stronger. even AFTER people told her she should just stay back and heal people. she wanted to not have to rely on Ichigo and she wanted to be able to stand on her own two feet. she didnt want people to worry about her in a fight.

her defensive training was cut short because of the real world attack and she went to HM directly after. even in captivity she made a plan to do what she could to help by destroying the Hyougyouku(?).

even in captivity when faced with beatings and fear, she stayed strong and focused on her goal to help in any way she could.

[Mr. DJ]

whoa whoa whoa...

Ichigo was ready to throw himself into the fight to get her back and not wait for anyone.

Orihime didn't just lay down. There is no bigger manipulation then threatening to kill your friends, and Uli wasn't blowing smoke in her face when he said that. Ichigo and the others would of died no question if Orihime tried to resist. She made the best possible decision given the situation, and that was to be able to protect her friends a little longer.

She allows for the enemy to push her around, take advantage of her and her abilities, and allows for them to make it real easy to capture her.

There's no doubt she's a rather passive person, but what do you expect her to do? Yammi destroyed Tsubaki and crushed her shield w/ relative ease, do you really think there is a point trying to fight back against that are above him?

Going out in a blaze of glory is great and all, but not if it would be in vein.

Ichigo's goal - go to HM and get his friend back
Orhime's goal - despite it involved her allowing herself to be captured, her ultimate goal was to protect her friends.

Though given she said along the lines "I'm gonna make the Hougekyou not exist." I'm wondering if Kubo will follow through w/ that line.

[Langus]

Alea: Couldn't agree more. Orihime still has a lot of work to do character development wise (both in personal and series terms)

HT: Why do you seem to think the King's role in the future will be so unnecessary? It strikes me as more than a little odd that Kubo would take the time to introduce the King into the series, demonstrate how his role is integral to the future plot (the Winter War is being fought essentially because Aizen has targeted the King) and then not take that anywhere?

At some point during this Winter War the King is going to be pulled into things. They still haven't revealed who he is or how everyone is really connected to him. There is so much that could be developed as far as shinigami and other characters we know (such as Ichigo's father) belonging to his personal guard. The way you talk about it it's as if you've got the entire finale of the series figured out. If you're right, hey kudos to you for imagining a predictable ending, but I sincerely hope you're wrong. I have faith that Kubo has at least a few more curve balls to throw our way.

I was actually tinkering with this idea the other night. It might be totally ludicrous but who knows, it might be possible.

Spoiler for for length:

So throughout the entire series whenever shinigami are in awe of Ichigo's power they always cut themselves off (manga/anime annoyance of mine). So we've been bombarded with phrases such as "It's almost like..." in reference to Ichigo and how they explain his explosive amount of power. Let's not forget how much power he had on his own before he became a Vizard. Whatever that "blue/white" power is, it's exponentially huge (remember Renji couldn't even move under the pressure of his spirit force at one point? The only other person he's like that with is Byakuya). I think this power is going to come back into play at some point.

What if it means that Ichigo is supposed to be the next king of SS? There have been references to Ichigo becoming king before (I'm thinking of the battle he has with his inner hollow for this one) and it has already been established that he's special and unique compared to all his comrades and the rest of SS. So maybe that's Ichigo's destiny and this has all been a test of his abilities and fitness to take on that role by the king (yeah okay so that's a bit far fetched hahaha).

All I'm saying is that we don't really know what could happen in the future. I don't think the king is going to be dropped just like that. If Aizen succeeds in killing the king, which he might because he has a wonderful track record of getting what he wants so far, they will need a new one and wouldn't Ichigo fit sorta nicely into that role? As king he would take SS in a new direction and give it a much needed change in wake of the war and shinigami relations with the hollow world.

Or hey, maybe I've just been smoking a bit too much of that peace pipe hahaha

[asam_laksa]

All I have to do is to cut and paste, and then highlight.......

Originally Posted by Langus

Look at the series as a whole - from start to finish. Which character has received the most attention apart from Ichigo? Rukia. Over the series we've learned about her childhood, her entry into Soul Society, her adoption into the Kuchiki house, her relationship with her superior (Kaien) and her role in his death, etc.) Apart from Ichigo, no other character's life has been studied as thoroughly or focused on as consistently as Rukia's. Even Orihime's development in HM is really just playing catch up to what's already been done for Rukia.

The fact that this development of Rukia's character has (and still is) on going for her is enough to attest to the fact that Rukia's role as the secondary protagonist in this series has not and will not change. Trying to allocate tertiary protagonist roles is just stupid and pointless. Apart from Ichigo and Rukia, every other protagonist in Bleach is on the same plain (for now Orihime shippers for now), as are all the villains with the exception of Aizen who is clearly the leader.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime have received far more attention and character development than anyone else (and when I say"character development" I'm not talking just about the amount of flashbacks shown, but about insights into their thoughts and emotions). The only other character that comes remotely close is Ishida maybe. When you consider the attention Orihime's development has received over the other secondary characters so far, she could be considered on par with Rukia in importance.

Originally Posted by Langus

Alea: Couldn't agree more. Orihime still has a lot of work to do character development wise (both in personal and series terms)

So, Langus would you say that Orihime has a potential to be a secondary character, or should I say to be in par with Rukia?

But don't worry, once the Bleach focuses on Hitsugaya, he too would become a secondary figure in Bleach. But then.......he already is, with his official popularity votes overshadowing Rukia's.

[Nervous Venus]

Originally Posted by asam_laksa

So, Langus would you say that Orihime has a potential to be a secondary character, or should I say to be in par with Rukia?

But don't worry, once the Bleach focuses on Hitsugaya, he too would become a secondary figure in Bleach. But then.......he already is, with his official popularity votes overshadowing Rukia's.

As far as I can remember, doesn't Rukia's official popularity vote overshadow Orihime's, even when this arc focuses on her? So what's your point?

[Mr. DJ]

bah popularity poles...::sets them on fire::

best characters aren't in the main cast

[asam_laksa]

Originally Posted by Nervous Venus

As far as I can remember, doesn't Rukia's official popularity vote overshadow Orihime's, even when this arc focuses on her? So what's your point?

Popularity of a character doesn't influence the merchandiser to to go around on a rampage mass producing of that character? Nor does it make any difference on whether it's always on the Shounen Jump cover pics / posters, if it's a 'main character'?

Who was the one who post those beautiful coloured pics with Ichgio, Rukia, AND OTHER BLEACH CHARACTERS AGAIN? What was the reason for posting it again?

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by asam_laksa

Except though, I have to disagree with the fact that Bleach pilot has the same cast Ichigo, Rukia and Orihime also. It doesn't exclusively belonged to Ichigo and Rukia only.

The pilot means nothing. It isn't part of the story.

I still think it's 'your inner fangirl' talking in disguise under the claimed name 'logic'

Actually, I don't fangirl over much of anything. IshidaxOrihime, maybe, but not much else. Bleach was originally about Ichigo and Rukia. Even though this arc focuses on Orihime, Ichigo and Rukia are still the focus of the story as a whole. It started with them, it will end with them. All the other characters are vital to the story, especially the supporting characters--Chad, Renji, Ishida and Inoue. Bleach isn't just about Ichigo and Rukia; their friends play a huge role in the story as well, but I seriously doubt Rukia will be forgotten while the manga focuses forever on Orihime in all her emo glory. Inoue will have her development. Then the focus will shift away from her. Maybe Kubo will develop Ishida and Chad a little as well. That'd be nice.

And while I don't put a lot of faith in popularity, it must mean something. Like maybe people are sick of Orihime and this arc. Kubo needs to resolve her issues and move on. It's been long enough.

[Nervous Venus]

Originally Posted by asam_laksa

Popularity of a character doesn't influence the merchandiser to to go around on a rampage mass producing of that character? Nor does it make any difference on whether it's always on the Shounen Jump cover pics / posters, if it's a 'main character'?

I don't want to come off sounding mean, but I can't understand the structure of your sentences, and therefore do not understand what it is you're trying to ask me. In fact, I don't know what the point of this post is, or your other post before. I'm sort of confused.

Are you saying that the popularity poll shouldn't be used as an argument as to who the main heroine is because Hitsugaya was no 1, and he barely shows up in this arc, let alone the others, and is actually a supporting character?

That I could understand, and totally agree with.

[Mr. DJ]

yeah...I had no trouble reading her posts till that one ::walks off confused::

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Lucia

Rukia being a cheerleader? ....Since when did Rukia ever acted like one?

Anyway, I think all the 5 main characters (Ichigo, Rukia, Orihime, Ishida, & Chad) are important to the future plot of Bleach. Each one of them, I'm sure, have a part to play in the future. Rukia is the lead female of Bleach. She's practically connected to everything that happen since the series began. Her connection to the hougyoko was one of them. For example, why did Urahara hid the hougyoko in Rukia? When exactly he hid it? How did she survive after Hisana left her as baby? Who found her and took care of her? How did she and Hisana ended up at Rokungai together at the same time and at the same place, even though Kubo mentioned in his manga that it's very rare occurrence. Coincidence? LOL, I seriously doubt it. Furthermore, her relationship with Ichigo needs a resolution just like Orihime's feelings needs one. In addition, Rukia is a shinigami. The winter war is a battle between shinigamis vs Aizen and his espadas. As a member of the Gotei 13, Rukia would be fighting during the winter war. So, as you can see, there's still a lot of stuff Kubo can do with Rukia's character. There's no way her role in the series is over. Not by a long shot! I predict we will see Rukia more often from now on since the war looks like it's already beginning to take shape, and the hougyoko has been mentioned in the last chapter of the flashback arc, and we know from the manga, that Rukia has connection to Urahara & the hougyoko.

About Orihime....Let me ask your question back at you...What possible importance can Orihime have on the story in the future, other than trying to destroy the hougyoko? Keep in mind that we don't even know if Kubo is going to make her do that even though she vowed to do it. Will her character development be affected if she somehow wasn't able to destroy the hougyoko? Personally, I don't believe it would. Destroying the hougyoko isn't an integral part of her development. Her resolution to her feelings are. Once her feelings have been resolve, then what? I'm not saying her role is finish after she have her resolution, because I'm sure she has a part to play in the future just like Rukia does. Afterall, there's a war brewing in the horizon. Everyone of the main characters needs to contribute in any possible way they can. However, we, as the readers, don't have any say on who gets more role and who doesn't in the series. So, if Kubo decide to put more Rukia later on, then who are we to argue with his choice. Afterall, Bleach is his story

Wow, you ignored pretty much all of bleach didn't you? everything you are asking about Rukia is already answered. Urahara had the hyogoku hidden in Rukia's gigai when she went to him for one after she was drained of her reiatsu. Why did he do it? cause it was the only way he can think of to get rid of it, he wanted to to merge with her and disappear, beyond that theres no other reason. The item has nothing to do with her character development, she knew nothing of it. Oh, and everyone and their grandma knows who Urahara is, They all go to him when they are in the area. He gets his shipments of goods from Soul Society.

As to her past, that was all explained already, no one raised her. She grew up with Renji and the rest of the orphan kids. Is that difficult to remember?

What resolution? Her ordeal with Ichigo has been settled 2 years ago. Kubo hasn't shown Rukia struggling with emotions concerning Ichigo, theres nothing to be resolved.

And theres no winter war, its been bumped up, or are you forgetting that Aizen and friends are about to have a show down real soon?

You're asking questions that has been answered. The hyogoku's destruction is a major part of Orihime, her powers are the only thing that can get rid of it. And thats the ultimate goal. Rukia ultimately has nothing to do with it anymore other than to be a cheer leader, she's too weak to face an Espada, no.9 doesn't count, she was severly outmatched in that fight as it was, she won by stupid luck.

Rukia of course will always be in the story, not saying she won't be, but as far as plot purposes I can't see her beyond anything more than being a cheerleader.

[Langus]

Originally Posted by asam_laksa

All I have to do is to cut and paste, and then highlight.......

So, Langus would you say that Orihime has a potential to be a secondary character, or should I say to be in par with Rukia?

But don't worry, once the Bleach focuses on Hitsugaya, he too would become a secondary figure in Bleach. But then.......he already is, with his official popularity votes overshadowing Rukia's.

Suba Kya said that, not me. While I will admit that Orihime has the potential to become a major player after this arc (depending on where Kubo takes her character of course) she will never overtake the spot as the series' lead heroine.

Also to imply that the popularity of characters can determine their status as primary characters is just nonsensical. If that were the case Bleach would be about Hitsygaya (didn't they JUST make a movie about HIM?) and not Ichigo. But since that's not how it works we'll just have to stick to the good old fashion tradition of reading the manga and watching the anime

[Mr. DJ]

popularity = $$ for merchants, that's about it

[Lucia]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

Wow, you ignored pretty much all of bleach didn't you? everything you are asking about Rukia is already answered. Urahara had the hyogoku hidden in Rukia's gigai when she went to him for one after she was drained of her reiatsu. Why did he do it? cause it was the only way he can think of to get rid of it, he wanted to to merge with her and disappear, beyond that theres no other reason. The item has nothing to do with her character development, she knew nothing of it. Oh, and everyone and their grandma knows who Urahara is, They all go to him when they are in the area. He gets his shipments of goods from Soul Society.

As to her past, that was all explained already, no one raised her. She grew up with Renji and the rest of the orphan kids. Is that difficult to remember?

What resolution? Her ordeal with Ichigo has been settled 2 years ago. Kubo hasn't shown Rukia struggling with emotions concerning Ichigo, theres nothing to be resolved.

And theres no winter war, its been bumped up, or are you forgetting that Aizen and friends are about to have a show down real soon?

You're asking questions that has been answered. The hyogoku's destruction is a major part of Orihime, her powers are the only thing that can get rid of it. And thats the ultimate goal. Rukia ultimately has nothing to do with it anymore other than to be a cheer leader, she's too weak to face an Espada, no.9 doesn't count, she was severly outmatched in that fight as it was, she won by stupid luck.

Rukia of course will always be in the story, not saying she won't be, but as far as plot purposes I can't see her beyond anything more than being a cheerleader.

Kubo answered those questions? ...When? I've read the manga from ch1 to the most recent chapter. If those questions have been answered, I wouldn't have mentioned them on my post. So, please provide me with canon proof on when Kubo answered those questions. Also, I just have to say this...your post has biasness written all over it. It's obvious you don't like Rukia's character and prefer Orihime over her. That's fine. Afterall, everyone has a right to choose any character as their favorite. The only thing that ticked me off is when some people come up with various non-canon stuff just so he/she can downplay a character's status in Bleach. Is it really necessary to downplay a character just to prove a point? Anyway, like I said on my previous post, if Kubo wants to show Rukia more in the manga, well that's his right to do so. We have no say on his decision. You may not like it, but tough luck. He's the creator & writer of the manga. He has the last say in what happen to it and in what direction the various characters will take. You say Rukia won't play any role in Bleach anymore, and just act like a cheerleader in the sidelines ...As you already know from my post, I disagree with you on that. I believe she will remain an integral part of the story until the very end of the series. We can argue back and forth with this issue, but it won't change anything. Our disagreements will still remain. The only way to settle this is to wait and see what Kubo will do in the manga.

Also, from the way I read your post, it looks to me that you don't know what's really happening in the manga at all. Please do us both a favor and go and read it again, or find an accurate translation for the chapters, because it's either you're reading the manga wrong due to incorrect translations, or your biasness is clouding your judgment and understanding of Bleach.

LOL, Rukia was never raised by anybody? Flash news for you! She was left as a BABY by her sister in one of the worst parts of Rokungai. Do you honestly believe that NO ONE found her and took care of her at all? ...Give me a break!

Furthermore, how do you know Orihime's powers are the ONLY thing that can destroy the hougyoko, and it's destruction is the ultimate goal?? LOL, when did Kubo ever said that in the manga?? Did he say that the ULTIMATE GOAL of Bleach is for Orihime to destroy the hougyoko? You know, from the way you talk so highly of Orihime, maybe you should petition for her to replace Ichigo as the lead of the series, and make Bleach the Orihime show from now on ...Anyway, I'm not saying you're wrong because it's possible that Orihime's powers will destroy the hougyoko in the end. However, there's also a possibility that it won't happen that way. So, to me, what you're saying in your post isn't canon info, but just your own personal theory. And hey, that's cool. I have my own set of theories about Bleach too

[Warchef]

Was there actually anything mentioned by any character besides Inoue about her destroying the Hougyoku? I know she willed herself to destroy it, but I don't remember any other character mentioning anything of the sort.

[Lucia]

Originally Posted by Warchef

Was there actually anything mentioned by any character besides Inoue about her destroying the Hougyoku? I know she willed herself to destroy it, but I don't remember any other character mentioning anything of the sort.

No. It wasn't mentioned by any other character. Orihime is the only one who said it, and she said it only to herself and only one time.

[blue skies]

Originally Posted by HayashiTakara

What resolution? Her ordeal with Ichigo has been settled 2 years ago. Kubo hasn't shown Rukia struggling with emotions concerning Ichigo, theres nothing to be resolved.

She may not be openly struggling with her emotions, but maybe she hasn't realized how she truly feels about him. He means more to her than anyone else, and vice versa; whatever they feel for each other became stronger over time. Not saying it's love, but it could be. It wouldn't be surprising for their relationship to take a romantic turn (if it hasn't already) given what I've seen from the two of them and how their relationship has progressed.

Rukia of course will always be in the story, not saying she won't be, but as far as plot purposes I can't see her beyond anything more than being a cheerleader.

So...she'll basically become Orihime?