Mobile Suit Gundam 00 Second Season - Episode 5 Discussion / Poll

[demon_god04]

The problem is that they are not state of the art anymore. While the Federation does seem to still have the older suits in service i very much doubt they are still being produced and bought in the numbers they used to. More then likely there are military providers who have a surplus of mobile suits that they were originally contracted to build who suddenly found that their products were nolonger needed is as great a number as the Federation focused on the production of the GN X or the GN XIII and Aheads. I was not saying that they are getting their suits from misappropriated sources from the Federation itself but likely through third party buyers from companies that originally produced those suits but found that their products were not as in demand as they expected.

[miles316]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

The problem is that they are not state of the art anymore. While the Federation does seem to still have the older suits in service i very much doubt they are still being produced and bought in the numbers they used to. More then likely there are military providers who have a surplus of mobile suits that they were originally contracted to build who suddenly found that their products were nolonger needed is as great a number as the Federation focused on the production of the GN X or the GN XIII and Aheads. I was not saying that they are getting their suits from misappropriated sources from the Federation itself but likely through third party buyers from companies that originally produced those suits but found that their products were not as in demand as they expected.

Is Ribbons hiding or not reporting the transfer of funds and materials needed to build and maintain the suits in order to prolong the war. Their probably are not many uses for high capacity electric servos, hydraulic systems, super capacitors, and rail gun parts out side of the military so the official users are not that large.

[NyxOne]

...What's Ribbons got to do with Kataron being messed up or what MSes they have?

[demon_god04]

No clue... Ribbons does not seem to be all that concerned about Kataron to be keeping tabs on them either. Frankly I am wondering if Ribbons have some sort of complex, maybe due to his name and is acting out against Aeolia because of it. He's only concerned with matters about CB and Aeolia's scheme.

[miles316]

If Veda can data mine the internet and predict what criminal (kataron) will do next.

Meaning when a company in eastern Europe gets a order every couple of weeks for a dozen bicycles (joints for mobile suit) but orders large amounts of super conducting metals not used in making bicycles would that not be flagged by Veda as suspicious. Weapons smuggling was one of the targets of the Celestial Being interventions and if a terrorist/freedom fighters are ably to operate sophisticated mobile suits somethings got to be wrong with the Federation intelligence community.

[demon_god04]

The question is, does Ribbons actually give two cents about what Kataron does. He seems more interested in CB and the gundam over anything Kataron may or may not be doing.

[The Monarch of Roses]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

The question is, does Ribbons actually give two cents about what Kataron does. He seems more interested in CB and the gundam over anything Kataron may or may not be doing.

I am willing to bet Ribbons is unconcerned with Kataron as opposed to CB. It would be an interesting turn of events if the current Federation were in fact Aeola's true objective.

[Nerroth]

I really ought to not read RC's synopsis before I watch the episodes...

...but that aside, it was still a very powerful episode.


I wonder if they will eventually have Sergei lead the regulars and a splinter group from A-Laws against the rest - and whether or not Andrei will end up opposing Soma in such a scenario?

[wtfftw]

@Wingdarkness that was a nice essay^^

Originally Posted by MooMooFarm

half the thread.

Dude its troublesome to reply back on all of it.

But i wanna say just 1 thing which why im like read at least read wtf is being said or the points of people replying to you post. Why do i say read again and ill say it 1 last time.

I said

1 the technological gap between old mecha and GN-x isnt comparable to gun and tank. It might take 5 shot shot to take down a Gn-X but its not impossible for an old time mech. And if you wanna play that game then ONLY tanks arent effective against footsoldiers you need soldiers WITH tanks to actually ensure tanks dont get fucked and to take out soldier. You assume someone is gonna stand still infront of a tank and get shot. they use tanks more for strongholds to take out enemy strongholds. Do you know what happens if you put a group of people against a tank. That tank is gonna get zerged it cant fire up close range now can it.

2 I said if you wanna play that game it would be soldiers with bazooka's and RPGs against tanks. Since your throwing your luck on the armor.

3 I also said being it GN-X or not they still dodge and can get shot down by older mecha it just way harder. WHy is ali graham able to pull up a fight.

4 They arent even the same things a gun is a gun and a tank is a tank now if you mentioned some tank from world war 1 or 2 i would still say that tank is capable of taking out a paladin tank or a leopard2 tank(just takes longer).

5 go play some Command and conquer Generals and take China infantry take rocket launchers and see what happens with the tanks Tank hunter ftw. OR US laser general and use laser guidance(even better^^).

and your conclusion about how Kataron is allowed to exist cuz ribbons wants its is serious bullcrap. The federation is annoyed with kataron and till this day they cant seem to take them out. Do you think the president of the United states and other federation countries only does attacks based on what ribbons says. They have their own policies. Ribbons doesnt own the federation. He can merely steer their policies in a certain direction thats it.

About the guy saying CB only did bad. CB caused the amounts of wars to decrease. The case you mentioned had 2 factions fighting over the mines thats wars again and civilians dying CB just took out both sides and so that country had to take a different root then "armed conflict".

Yes i know thats bad. They need to sit around the table, to bad they cant pick up their guns and shoot each other in the head.

The whole "what CB did was THAT bad" is so bullcrap Cb didnt even kill any civilians. They freaking stopped a revolution cuz they brought back some Muslim. Seriously what is it that makes you think that countries are allowed to make war yet others arent. Alot of Countries you now know are formed because of what was then seen by formed rulers as terrorists.

Let me explain it to you when you PICK up a GUN or mecha for a matter you shouldn't be surprised to be shot or killed and dont cry when you lose, because in war there is only a winner and a loser. Now CB owned everyone. No one could do anything about it but whine. There is NO rule stating WHO is allowed to fight in a war and who not when you look at sides. If the Taliban decided to ask help from aliens and takes out America then America loses plain and simple. Please grasp this War is basically "A STATE OF CHAOS". In this state of chaos some miracle pawn team can do whatever they like if they dont get caught. The problem is CB cant dictate or practices what it preaches it just hoped and assumed people would stop and to some extend it did.

CB only did armed intervention which could be seen as something that the UN did in Sarajevo only CB just killed both sides. Now i am like so what if CB killed soldiers, soldiers die in war thats what has been the case since ages ago. So dont cryw hen yo lose when you dont have anything to back up your words.

Now that i have been on it again i could just as well get back to the kataron issue. Your whole problem is that you think people are useless when they dont have high spec gundams. Thats what set you apart from the rest of us. Because we view people as valuable and that can contribute. If you read this post good for once you can see that i mentioned. CB should be able to make sure what it wants and asked of the world to be carried out. Kataron can play a role in this as to why i said they should team up. because for the meisters it means they can have a way to get both sides to work together and to have a social backing insuring no wars because both sides could then come to an agreement.

You fail to grasp that it isnt only about war. war is 99% of the time a political issue. For politics influences are important. Kataron represents alot of countries. Whether you like it or not even if they had spears bows and arrows if its their country or they represent a huge countries it means they have a social backing which can be used for the goals of CB. Thats how politics works.

Aside from the fact that kataron might not win a conventional war. You seem to fail to understand and only have seen atrocities of A-Laws and kataron. You are not shown for example that kataron that basically stand against how the federation does stuff might fight the Federation as whole which they also do. Which means they would be fighting against Mecha without freaking solar furnaces. that what i been trying to tell you. Now i understand and i agree also with your last post in which you clarified this i havent really read the post of you before that where you stated that you mentioned that. But i disagree with you on the "how they are so dumb" yet you like everyone of them cuz they are all rational. Now if they are all rational. Obvioulsy they know what they are gaining from this and you nor i havent seen the benefits or how big kataron is for that matter.

To say it very simple the authors wouldnt evenmention kataron if they werent an issue most of us sorta get that. Its not like they show some farmers in azedstan (or whatever that country's name is) and say ook how jihad008 get owned.

And MooMooFarm like 000q said your examples suck^^ not to be rude but it just is

Originally Posted by Slayerx

in the 2nd episode, Saji confronted one of the crew saying they were to blame, he replied and that is why we must fight now. Also when Saji was talking to Ian, Ian directly stated that they were all criminals and that they would face punishment after their job was done... futhermore Setsuna in the 1st episode continiously went on about how nothing had changed after all the fighting they had done and remains silent and puts up no defense when Saji blames him and CB for what happened to the world, and in episode one Setsuna

And Lyle was rather pointless to bring up... he wasn't a member of CB in season one and therefore can not blame himself for anything CB had done

The Issue on why they say they might be seen as criminals is because they dont have a freaking country to go to. Thats the whole point of me saying go work with kataron.

Look If CB works with a country then basically For other countries it would mean that if the world is in peace and no one is gonna fight anymore all weapons are destroyed just imagine it i know its impossible but try. In such a case, If the meisters retire and wanna go on with life they gonna return to countries. Now if Lyle goes to ireland or some shit and Ireland is part of the federation Then the secret agency of Ireland is gonna arrest him for what he did. However, If the Meisters join up with Kataron and CIA wants to go to Azedistan and captures Setsuna and Azedistan knows this

ITS WAR AGAIN.

Which is why THEY NEED kataron to have political backing when issues are gonna be resolved to present their case or its plain BS. Which is im like the way they are doing things now is just suicide.

[Kinku]

im realy glad bushido decide not to par take in such a slaughter...

What i dont get is seeing karton getting mad at CB.. i mean if CB wanted to take them out they could have done it without A-laws. I hope Saji tells his side of the story maybe than i wont see him as a pussy for his mistakes.

Man now i want to see a three way battle with Ali... setsuna and Bushido..that would be totally epic.

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by demon_god04

Well Kataron is getting their Tierens, Flags and Hellions from somewhere. And well we know the AEU had a practice of selling their surplus mobile suits off to the highest bidder. Wouldn't be that off if an opportunistic military provider sold their obsolete arms to someone else with the advent of the GN drives.

More likely, the MS came with the pilots.

We can see that the pilots did not wear matching uniforms. Instead, they wear either AEU, Union, or HRL outfits. This is too much work for a resistance group to organize, unless the pilots actually brought their own uniforms to work. And if they were soldiers who brought their uniforms, the is a good chance they brought their mecha with them too.

It was shown that Kataron was formed because there was dissatisfaction within the ranks of the old world powers. Even Sergei was concerned. So it is entirely possible that Kataron is the literal remnant of the old world powers, who think the Federation is nuts and wanted to fix things as per their patriotic duty.

[Ardi220288]

I wonder if they gonna arrest sergei or at least take an eye of him. He release saji. I don't think A-LAWS going to be happy about it (not to mention he sniff around here and there). It's just that with Soma wanted normal happiness(as his child), Andrei blaming him for his mother death and theories of Soma defection from A-LAWS. somehow I saw a really strong deathflag on Sergei (which I truly hope I were wrong)

[000q]

Originally Posted by MooMooFarm

You fail to give the number of Jewish people who took resistance and lived and the number that died, then compared the ratio to those that lived under abuse. Until then, it doesn't matter if my example is as depressing as 1% of the population surviving if it means the comparison is less than 1%. Last I checked, NO jewish resistance survived. Ethnic cleansing is not because of resistance, it happened to the Jewish that just happened to be rich or had something of value, not because they FOUGHT BACK. It was just an excuse to horde their possessions. If you had bling, YOU DIED. Resistance also does not mean Jewish that RAN AWAY, unless you intend to say Kataron has just been HIDING AND NOT DOING ANYTHING waiting for FALL OUT 3 TO HAPPEN.

Number of Jews exterminated via concentration camps: 6 million. Just for being Jewish.

Number of Jewish people who took resistance and lived and the number that died: less than 10000, to give you benefit of the doubt; I would persnally put it to being less than 1000; you couldn'tt be jewish and live out in the open in Nazi Germany.

Number of Jews that took resistance and lived: less than 10000 guaranteed - if you were Jewish and were just going along with your own life, you got transported to the ghettos in Nazi Germany. You can't actively fight a regmine using guerilla methods if the regmine is trying to kill you based on you being Jewish in appearance. There were no Jewish people living normal lives at the end of the 2nd World War in Europe, either thye were in ghettos, concentration camps, abroad, or Anne Franking it away in someone's attic. So the ratio would be at least 100:1. Merely because a Jewish resistance didn't exist, if there was a resistiance it would be run by the local indigenous population (see French resistance for exmaple).

I don't see how Kataron compares to this; the Holocaust is an example of an ethnic group being the target of racist intentions and the end product of anger, shame and humiliation of Germans losing the 1st world war, channeled into racism for a particular sect of society. Kataron on the other hand is a resistance group fighting against a totalitarian regmine that persecutes indscriminantly against dissidents - the Federation isn't racist nor are they engaging in ethnic cleansing; they are just using Stalinist tactics against their opponents.

If the Federation are shown to be randomly, say, rounding up Asian people indscriminantly and blasting them to death using Aheads then your point would have validity; til then, no.

[wtfftw]

Originally Posted by 000q

Number of Jews exterminated via concentration camps: 6 million. Just for being Jewish.

Number of Jewish people who took resistance and lived and the number that died: less than 10000, to give you benefit of the doubt; I would persnally put it to being less than 1000; you couldn'tt be jewish and live out in the open in Nazi Germany.

Number of Jews that took resistance and lived: less than 10000 guaranteed - if you were Jewish and were just going along with your own life, you got transported to the ghettos in Nazi Germany. You can't actively fight a regmine using guerilla methods if the regmine is trying to kill you based on you being Jewish in appearance. There were no Jewish people living normal lives at the end of the 2nd World War in Europe, either thye were in ghettos, concentration camps, abroad, or Anne Franking it away in someone's attic. So the ratio would be at least 100:1. Merely because a Jewish resistance didn't exist, if there was a resistiance it would be run by the local indigenous population (see French resistance for exmaple).

I don't see how Kataron compares to this; the Holocaust is an example of an ethnic group being the target of racist intentions and the end product of anger, shame and humiliation of Germans losing the 1st world war, channeled into racism for a particular sect of society. Kataron on the other hand is a resistance group fighting against a totalitarian regmine that persecutes indscriminantly against dissidents - the Federation isn't racist nor are they engaging in ethnic cleansing; they are just using Stalinist tactics against their opponents.

If the Federation are shown to be randomly, say, rounding up Asian people indscriminantly and blasting them to death using Aheads then your point would have validity; til then, no.

Another reason why that example is sorta invalid is because when you use statistics like this you need to evaluate other examples too to actually have a correct view on these sort of resistance.

Also being Jewish in that time sadly enough almost meant you were dead. IF you would use this as an example then alot were being send to camps just to die. While others fought back and thus also have a chance of fleeing out of Europe, since the option of fighting back is there. So that rather means they choose a different way to die(with honor dying while fighting instead of dying as whatever you can call it i don't have any words for it).

[KiNA]

@ WD, if Katie didnt get Natarle'd as you said, I proposed that she marries PapaBear and have a quiet life.. all 3 of them

btw, I couldnt imagine how Tieria fit in Lyle's cockpit on their way back to Ptolemy cause I'm sure Yummyragi will hitch a ride on Arios(giving how she is his oneesan, so that left Tieria to go back in Cherudim XD. Must feel weird in there Very weird XD

[wingdarkness]

Originally Posted by KiNA

@ WD, if Katie didnt get Natarle'd as you said, I proposed that she marries PapaBear and have a quiet life.. all 3 of them

PapaBear don't take kindly to crow's feet...PapaBear like fetus feet^^...

[Vallen Chaos Valiant]

Originally Posted by Ardi220288

I wonder if they gonna arrest sergei or at least take an eye of him. He release saji. I don't think A-LAWS going to be happy about it (not to mention he sniff around here and there). It's just that with Soma wanted normal happiness(as his child), Andrei blaming him for his mother death and theories of Soma defection from A-LAWS. somehow I saw a really strong deathflag on Sergei (which I truly hope I were wrong)

Sergei's had a death-flag over his head the whole time. Being an honorable, middle-age wise veteran who took a young person under his wing, most people weren't expecting him to even last this long.

So what's one more death flag? It wouldn't make much of a difference any more.

[Demongod86]

Originally Posted by LightningZERO

Nope. Neil is deader than dead

Spoiler for Lockon...Lockon...Lockon...Lockon...Lockon:

And then his body is vaporized too

WTF? His mask shattered? This I don't remember. Special edition or something?

Either way, he can always pull a Mwu if the producers deem they can milk him more.

As for the episode, LOL @ Saji. While he originally was meant to be a civilian perspective, now he's just the show's bitch. Louise always wants to fight something and never does and just stands around looking like an imbecile. I wonder what Sergei did that let his wife die.

Would have given it a lower score, but the end was just pwnage:

Setsuna: A gundam?! And it's red--it CAN'T BE!

Ali: IT IS!

Gotta love that magnificent bastard.

[KiNA]

No just no.. As lightningzero said, he is deader then dead. Mwu got his helmet removed in the special to return. Neil had his visor shattered (if that is official) added to the special.

Let the guy RIP. We got Lyle now, and if ep5 is any indication, it would also be a good candidate for a favourite character by the end of the season ..

And until the last episode, I rate him lowly too, ep4 kiss scene bumped him up a bit (because he did it to distant himself from the original Lockon) and last ep bumped his likable factor a bit more for me.

[Slayerx]

Originally Posted by wtfftw

The Issue on why they say they might be seen as criminals is because they dont have a freaking country to go to. Thats the whole point of me saying go work with kataron.

Look If CB works with a country then basically For other countries it would mean that if the world is in peace and no one is gonna fight anymore all weapons are destroyed just imagine it i know its impossible but try. In such a case, If the meisters retire and wanna go on with life they gonna return to countries. Now if Lyle goes to ireland or some shit and Ireland is part of the federation Then the secret agency of Ireland is gonna arrest him for what he did. However, If the Meisters join up with Kataron and CIA wants to go to Azedistan and captures Setsuna and Azedistan knows this

ITS WAR AGAIN.

Which is why THEY NEED kataron to have political backing when issues are gonna be resolved to present their case or its plain BS. Which is im like the way they are doing things now is just suicide.

First off, the whole point of my post was to point out the CB DOES blame themselves for the way the world is

Second of all, the term "Criminal" in the sense that Ian uses it should not be taken that literally. He is not talking about the Legality of what they are doing, he is speaking about morality. No amount of political backing, or legality will change how they feel morally... morality and Legality are two things that do not necessarily go together; just because its legal, doesn't mean its right


And CB do not want to join with Catalan... They are not just fighting the A-laws but also the earth federation and have their own political ideologies; something they can't really get themselves tied with. CB is fighting for what they believe must be done; so long as they can bring an end to war then they don't care about their own personal fates after the fighting is over.

Originally Posted by Demongod86

Either way, he can always pull a Mwu if the producers deem they can milk him more.

Man, it would be such a dick move to actually toy with the idea of bringing Lyle back from the dead...
Make the maskman someone who we could not identify, and then throw in some subtle hints like him using some long range sniping and lead the audience on... becomes more effective if we eliminate both graham and Ali as potential masked men by having them show up or confirmed dead... So amny fans will start speculated that is Lyle or any number of reportedly dead characters and the real kicker is when the masked man is revealed to actually be Louise; just because no one would have suspected it for even a second (so long as she was continuously appearing in a seemingly important non-combative role... people would get suspicious in she was absent)

though seriously, one of my disappointments over Mr.Bushido is that it feels like a bit of a waste of a mask... i mean, the most effective purpose of a mask is hide the character's identity from other characters, and especially hide them from the viewers. We already know that Mista Bushido is Graham... as for the rest of the cast, i'm not sure who knows and who doesn't, but considering that the only person Mista Bushido is REALLY hiding from is himself (Graham), the question of who knows and who doesn't is really rather moot.

Sure it could be used for symbolic reasons as it is being used in Graham's case, but it just feels somewhat 'meh' by comparison. The reveal of who is behind the mask can be such a surprise, and is one of the pinnacle moments for many masked men... but with Mista Bushido, there doesn't seem to be any surprises... not for us, or the characters around him.