[Manga] Chapter 448 Spoiler Discussion

[Jehuty]

I don't think Nagato is going to kill himself or do anything to die. He wants to live to see Naruto's promise through. He wants to make sure that if he's going to believe in someone, that person damn better be able to fulfill it.

There's absolutely no way Nagato will give Naruto his eye technique or anything - that's just ridiculous.

What I think will happen is Nagato will release the Jutsu that binds him. Whether someone will sneak in and try to kill Nagato or Naruto, I'm uncertain. But chances are Nagato will pull a Gaara.

[Fran~]

Originally Posted by Kafriel

Then Naruto can start his little harem of Sakura,Hinata,Tsunade,Shizune,Amaru,that snow princess(dun remember names),Konan and...Gaara!

You forgot Sasuke for god's sake!

[Luminion Lancer]

Originally Posted by Fran~

You forgot Sasuke for god's sake!

-The problem would arise because Sasuke would always end up the uke and then get a whole new revenge going. Then, the next time he deserts Konoha he will claim "Naruto never let me be on top so now I must get stronger to avenge my neglected and mistreated Uchiha pen15" .

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Matter of taste, personally I thought it was pathetic.
I had brassed myslef for month at the idea that Nagato was going to make a cheesy "philosophic" U-turn because of Naruto before dying but I honestly didn't expect it to be so badly written.
On a side note the action scene wasn't really a flashback, it was Nagato's imagination as he read Jiraiya's book, the same scene was shown some chapters ago when Naruto read it (I thought the idea to show the same thing from two different point of view was good actually even if poorly executed). As for revelation I don't see what, well except that overuse of the Rinnengan obviously left Nagato with some brain damages.

Oh well, the conversion scenes have got worse as time passed anyway, Zabuza was fine, Neji was more or less ok, Gaara turning from a psychopath to a nice guy was funny but still worked, Sai's was a big joke and now Nagato suddenly turns around because Naruto repeated what Jiraiya had already told Nagato (and got killed for it, too bad for him he wasn't a blonde teenager I guess). At this rate Sasuke's conversion is going to be something to behold.

Yeah, that was more or less my opinion as well. We had literally predicted this ending 2 or so months ago (at least since Minato stupid appearance 8 chapters ago), so it wasn't really that much of a surprise, but the gigantic leaps in logic were simply too disabilitating to the flow and progression of the story. How can Nagato simply give in to a young man who only speaks words of idealism? How can Naruto claim that 'faith' is all that is needed? Et cetera, et cetera. Here's hoping that the jutsu Nagato is about to use is some sort of genjutsu that tests Naruto's mettle (i.e. forces Naruto to experience what it would be like to kill Sasuke, or something to that effect, then, if his opinion has still not changed, Nagato can fully surrender to Naruto). I will hold off my full opinion until I see whatever jutsu Nagato will perform, but right now, I have some serious trepidation concerning the ending of this fun arc.

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by james0246

Yeah, that was more or less my opinion as well. We had literally predicted this ending 2 or so months ago (at least since Minato stupid appearance 8 chapters ago), so it wasn't really that much of a surprise, but the gigantic leaps in logic were simply too disabilitating to the flow and progression of the story. How can Nagato simply give in to a young man who only speaks words of idealism? How can Naruto claim that 'faith' is all that is needed? Et cetera, et cetera. Here's hoping that the jutsu Nagato is about to use is some sort of genjutsu that tests Naruto's mettle (i.e. forces Naruto to experience what it would be like to kill Sasuke, or something to that effect, then, if his opinion has still not changed, Nagato can fully surrender to Naruto). I will hold off my full opinion until I see whatever jutsu Nagato will perform, but right now, I have some serious trepidation concerning the ending of this fun arc.

You're talking of Nagato as if he were a logical being. But come on, don't you think he demonstrated enough crazyness already? Nagato did shorten his life span by destroying Konoha just to prove his crazy theory about pain and peace. Just look at him, does he look like evil guy who wants world domination? He looks pathetic to begin with, Kishi didn't show his true state before the end of the fight because all the built up "godlike" aura of Pain/Nagato would have gone to waste. All what happened to Nagato in his life has ruined not only his body but his mental state too. He gave up on his ideals long ago, as we see in this chapter he was meant to be the savior but he failed long ago. He just understood this under these extreme circumsantces. These circumstances are: a young boy has defeated him, this boy has single handedly killed the god that Nagato created, the god that has never been beaten, the god who destroyed the strongest ninja village. Nagato has killed the boy's teachers and friends and destroyed his village and finally tried to kill him. And this guy makes something unprecedented in the life of Nagato (and in this manga): he does not kill Nagato. Naruto's existence is a complete contradiction of Nagato's nicely built up crazy theory about the world, because by that theory Naruto should have already killed him and Konan. If it were me in place of Naruto i would have rasenshurikened the paper-tree and would have rasenshurikened it again and again until everything were reduced to ashes, and then i would have proceeded to destroy the rain village and kill everybody there, that is how angry i would be after what Nagato did to Naruto. And almost everybody would do this, even if asked many would deny it. And after all this Nagato has realized that Naruto is exactly like he was when he was young, he could see his old self in Naruto, before he failed at life. And that's when he realized that he had failed, he was being judged by his old self and then his old self forgives him what he did and does not kill him.

Most of the fights in this manga have no logical reason, they're based on different emotions and ideas. Take for example the first big fight: why would Zabuza fight against the legendary Kakashi instead of killing Gatou and taking his position or money? It doesn't make sense to fight the stroger one when you can easily fight and kill the weaker one. Or why would he attack the bridge builers when he can just wait until the bridge has been raised and Kakashi has returned to Konoha and then destroy the bridge and kill some people. I think that the Deidara vs Sasuke fight was one of the greatest fights of this manga, but it's completely illogical, why would Deidara want to fight Sasuke. Many akatsukians were driven by emotion instead of logic, otherwise they wouldn't have died. In the end when these people were beaten they accepted death, which is illogical, since they could have escaped. Deidara suicided, Sasori has suicided too even if it was not properly explained why, and now we see how Nagato is accepting his defeat.

[strategos]

Another thing that the seal would be is: he releasing all the souls he took with that deamon.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by strategos

Another thing that the seal would be is: he releasing all the souls he took with that deamon.

I would rather speculate the re-distrubution of chakra to all the tailed beasts users. Who knows? Maybe the tailed-beast wielders that have died up till now may be resurrected by this technique he is about to use. But then again, I find that once the user is dead there cannot be simply an easy way of reviving them. Either that, or Nagato somehow removes the stakes off of his body and follows Naruto towards his promise for peace. Something seems a bit fishy though..even Konan was a bit suprised as to how WILLING Nagato was to accept Naruto's statement. I expected a longer explanation, but I can see how Nagato has turned a leaf over.

[Agallion]

Originally Posted by Haak

Maybe Nagato will help Naruto become the Mizukage? That would be an interesting twist.

How would Nagato pull this?'


Madara is the Mizukage.

[Justin Kim]

Originally Posted by Tech-Guy

oh yeah it would be kool if he gives the title of mizukage to naruto ne? and then konoha will be allied to them it would be a good practice to be hokage etc.
or just give one of his eyes the rinnegan and we see naruto with an eye patch xD now that will be kool xD
lol jk

No thank you...I do not think fans would like looking at Naruto on the front cover with an eye patch every chapter.

[ronin myael]

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You're talking of Nagato as if he were a logical being. But come on, don't you think he demonstrated enough crazyness already? Nagato did shorten his life span by destroying Konoha just to prove his crazy theory about pain and peace. Just look at him, does he look like evil guy who wants world domination? He looks pathetic to begin with, Kishi didn't show his true state before the end of the fight because all the built up "godlike" aura of Pain/Nagato would have gone to waste. All what happened to Nagato in his life has ruined not only his body but his mental state too. He gave up on his ideals long ago, as we see in this chapter he was meant to be the savior but he failed long ago. He just understood this under these extreme circumsantces. These circumstances are: a young boy has defeated him, this boy has single handedly killed the god that Nagato created, the god that has never been beaten, the god who destroyed the strongest ninja village. Nagato has killed the boy's teachers and friends and destroyed his village and finally tried to kill him. And this guy makes something unprecedented in the life of Nagato (and in this manga): he does not kill Nagato. Naruto's existence is a complete contradiction of Nagato's nicely built up crazy theory about the world, because by that theory Naruto should have already killed him and Konan. If it were me in place of Naruto i would have rasenshurikened the paper-tree and would have rasenshurikened it again and again until everything were reduced to ashes, and then i would have proceeded to destroy the rain village and kill everybody there, that is how angry i would be after what Nagato did to Naruto. And almost everybody would do this, even if asked many would deny it. And after all this Nagato has realized that Naruto is exactly like he was when he was young, he could see his old self in Naruto, before he failed at life. And that's when he realized that he had failed, he was being judged by his old self and then his old self forgives him what he did and does not kill him.

Most of the fights in this manga have no logical reason, they're based on different emotions and ideas. Take for example the first big fight: why would Zabuza fight against the legendary Kakashi instead of killing Gatou and taking his position or money? It doesn't make sense to fight the stroger one when you can easily fight and kill the weaker one. Or why would he attack the bridge builers when he can just wait until the bridge has been raised and Kakashi has returned to Konoha and then destroy the bridge and kill some people. I think that the Deidara vs Sasuke fight was one of the greatest fights of this manga, but it's completely illogical, why would Deidara want to fight Sasuke. Many akatsukians were driven by emotion instead of logic, otherwise they wouldn't have died. In the end when these people were beaten they accepted death, which is illogical, since they could have escaped. Deidara suicided, Sasori has suicided too even if it was not properly explained why, and now we see how Nagato is accepting his defeat.

Nicely said, my sentiments exactly. Thank you!

[JOJOS'STAR]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Matter of taste, personally I thought it was pathetic.
I had brassed myslef for month at the idea that Nagato was going to make a cheesy "philosophic" U-turn because of Naruto before dying but I honestly didn't expect it to be so badly written.
On a side note the action scene wasn't really a flashback, it was Nagato's imagination as he read Jiraiya's book, the same scene was shown some chapters ago when Naruto read it (I thought the idea to show the same thing from two different point of view was good actually even if poorly executed). As for revelation I don't see what, well except that overuse of the Rinnengan obviously left Nagato with some brain damages.

Oh well, the conversion scenes have got worse as time passed anyway, Zabuza was fine, Neji was more or less ok, Gaara turning from a psychopath to a nice guy was funny but still worked, Sai's was a big joke and now Nagato suddenly turns around because Naruto repeated what Jiraiya had already told Nagato (and got killed for it, too bad for him he wasn't a blonde teenager I guess). At this rate Sasuke's conversion is going to be something to behold.

Haha now you've turn into a hater! naah I remember the good old days too and the way we'd imagined the stories with lots of "nothing like what it is now" ^^

But the story has kept a good quality standard since 2003.. I'll admit that the dialogues is not what it used to be. But in my opinion no recent year anime of any kind has top the old standard way of writting like the epic animes of the late 90's...

[hamstar]

so people on this forum actually agree that nagato believing in naruto based on faith is dumb?

im impressed, there may be hope yet.

[james0246]

^You do have to admit that is is kind of ironic that a person who claimed to be a god has to now rely on faith in order for peace to occur...it's pretty funny when you think about it...or it's just badly written...

[Keroko]

You know, amusingly enough a similar talk happened in the latest One Piece chapter. It ended with someone jumping in and crushing the guy spewing the 'justice and evil' talk with the line:

"Just give it up. All this talk of 'justice' and 'evil', no matter where you search... There's no answer to be found you blockhead!"

It's ironic that despite One Piece being a manga rooted in silliness, its cast has a far better grip on reality than the Naruto cast.

[Kafriel]

Maybe so, but Naruto got the nakama-no-jutsu, he can make friends with even Madara and the kyuubi if he gets really hyped
That would be a fitting ending, Naruto would become hokage after befriending the exam judges and world leader after befriending the other kages,it's like what you see in shoujo manga, but instead of the power of love, we got the power of brainwashing.

[Marcus H.]

I hope Nagato's jutsu would return the souls of the Hell Realm's victims or revive the six dead Jinchuuriki.

[Hunter]

Originally Posted by JOJOS'STAR

Haha now you've turn into a hater! naah I remember the good old days too and the way we'd imagined the stories with lots of "nothing like what it is now" ^^

Nothing so extreme, I dislike the ending of this fight is all.

Originally Posted by Ero-Senn1n

You're talking of Nagato as if he were a logical being. But come on, don't you think he demonstrated enough crazyness already?
[...]

Look I'm not expecting some grand story telling when I read Naruto, merely to be entertained but this is just subpar even compared to the usual plot.
Let's make that simple, what did Naruto say in this very chapter that he didn't already say a few chapters back when Pain had him pinned on the ground?
His answer is pretty straightfoward : Here's Jiraiya's belief, I believe in them too and I'm going to make sure it works out eventually, believe it. This is exactly his answer, or lack there off, that Nagato made fun at previously in their fight. Except now it worked, just like that.
I mean here is Nagato heart of blades, the man intending to kill scores of millions of people, the babies killer who murdered Jiraiya because he thought his ideal was pointless and beneath the god he had become, who wasted Konoha a few minutes ago and sneered again at the same same ideology when Naruto talked about it.... Suddenly realize he has been wrong for the last few decades because Naruto repeated it a third times.
It's just stupid, I often made joke about Naruto greatest power being his power to change people into his bitches but obviously Sage-mode gave a power-up to this ability as well.

That said you make a good point about the fact that Nagato sees his old self sparing the twisted man he has become (thought he doesn't forgive him for what he has done), the problem is that there is no transition whatosever for Nagato to re-think his ideal over. It's like Neji changing his mind about his uncle if he hadn't read his father's memento or Zabuza starting to cry before Haku had died, it simply makes no sense.

[Gamma_Sennin]

^what about the fact, that after all he (Nagato) had done to Naruto.. destroying his village, killing both his sensei's... He said he wouldn't kill him, even though he can never forgive him... That is the transition you speak of IMO... As Ero_senn1n suggested, it completely went against everything Nagato was preaching.. All of a sudden, this kid who could so easily take his revenge, refused to continue the chain of hatred... Naruto had faith even when he experienced all this pain, something Nagato was unable to do... I think the fact he sees himself in Naruto inspired him.. as he said "Faith is better than any plan"...

Though I know this aint winning any pulitzers any time soon.. I believe its good enough for me to accept, as a part of the overall story.. (Which u basically said anyway.. so i guess im agreeing:P)

[Ero-Senn1n]

Originally Posted by Hunter

but this is just subpar even compared to the usual plot.

I have seen similar plot in Naruto often, just some examples:
- Sasori suddenly deciding that he has to die. In the beginning Chiyo says that only two old puppets will be enough, then we see the fight and there's no effect, and then suddenly at the end of the fight we see the heavy effect on Sasori.
- Sasuke decides not to kill Naruto after a fierce fight, while in the fight he tried to kill him
- Kakuzu being suddenly outsmarted by Naruto, the hundred years old experienced ninja being tricked with one move.
- Orochimaru trying the same thing agains Sasuke that he tried against Itachi. He played with fire again and got burnt again like a stupid kid

I think this is not worse than many other crucial parts of the plot. But i agree that this heavily depends on our "tastes".

Originally Posted by Hunter

Let's make that simple, what did Naruto say in this very chapter that he didn't already say a few chapters back when Pain had him pinned on the ground?
His answer is pretty straightfoward : Here's Jiraiya's belief, I believe in them too and I'm going to make sure it works out eventually, believe it. This is exactly his answer, or lack there off, that Nagato made fun at previously in their fight. Except now it worked, just like that.

I think it's everything about the context, this is a reverse context here, everything is working in Naruto's favor: the book, the death of "god", Nagato's defeat and finally Naruto saying that he will break this chain of hatred right here by not killing Nagato. By saying to Nagato that he will not kill him Naruto has invited him to be a better man, it seems that this has completely messed up Nagato's mind, and by that many things came out from Nagato's mind that he buried there lot of time ago. I think Naruto didn't even realize how important that book was to Nagato, it is pure luck (as always for the good guys in this manga) that the book turned out to be so important in Nagato's life.

Originally Posted by Hunter

and beneath the god he had become, who wasted Konoha a few minutes ago
Suddenly realize he has been wrong for the last few decades because Naruto repeated it a third times.

In shonen manga there's often this stupid logic: they think the one who wins the fight is right, that is whatever his ideology is if he wins the fight he is right and who loses is wrong. Naruto has killed god. The death of a god messes up the mind of those who believe in him, and Nagato surely had believed in his Yahiko-god to bring his version of piece. What i mean is that these 6 bodies were not only mere puppets for Nagato, i think that Nagato believed in the Yahiko-lead bodies on a religiously fanatical level.

Originally Posted by Hunter

the problem is that there is no transition whatosever for Nagato to re-think his ideal over. It's like Neji changing his mind about his uncle if he hadn't read his father's memento or Zabuza starting to cry before Haku had died, it simply makes no sense.

I think Sasori choosing death is the best example for such no-transition-changes. The reason is probably that Kishimoto has no time/pages to spare for a long transition. Probably there's a rule that all this non-fighting part should be at most 4-5 chapters, and even than one month has passed with philosophical matters in a fighting shonen manga
I think Gaara's transition was much better simply because Kishimoto gave it a 3 years off-screen time. Gaara had enogh time to really change, on top of that he was in his teenager years and that's when people can really change, not when they're already grown up.

[papercard]

i think kazekage gaara and the sand shinobi's will back them up for reinforcements... and about the houses and things destroyed in konoha... its up to captain yamato to rebuild it all...