2010-01-15, 10:18 | Link #2201 | |
阿賀野型3番艦、矢矧 Lv180
Graphic Designer
Moderator Join Date: Mar 2006
Location: Belgium, Brussels
Age: 37
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Unless you are claiming that Bern doesn't even use Erika's POV to check whether or not the narration is true (which would be stupid considering she obviously know the shrodinger cat box concept), that pretty much mean the corpses did disappear. If however you think that they weren't even present in their room during the discovery, that doesn't change anything: that the survivors lied to Erika. Either way, it is as I mentioned already: the only way for this trick is that the victims were actually alive and were hiding at some point, before being killed (ambushed?). Anyway, regarding the whole Bern discussion, I must remind you all that Beato was nowhere kind enough: it is indeed confirmed she wanted Battler to resolve the mystery of rokkenjima, but did she need to impersonate a cruel psychotic murdering witch? Of course not. However, even though it was overdone, it HAD a purpose, and it worked on Battler. I'm not trying to justify Bern cruelty here, as it was definitely unecessary 99% of the time. However, there might be a reason aside of the "bored to death, enjoying people's suffering" explanation. Suffice to say, there are equal chances for her to be deep down sadist to the bone (I still think it is 50/50). I personally think that ambiguous stance is the most interesting part of her character: that she can be both an ally and an enemy... quite suitable for a cat like her. Also, I'm rather surprised that people quickly forgot about Lambda's cruel comments as well. You don't need to show a troll face to reveal your true colors either. Lambda had her plenty share of horrible jabs that I don't think she is any "less" cruel than Bern (don't tell me the whole hamburger stuff is softcore: that was basically a bitch slap to Battler). To the contrary, I think that Lambda still has the potential to be the last "boss", as much as Bern.
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2010-01-15, 11:48 | Link #2202 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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Well who said that Lambda is good? She's quite cruel herself, and Beato was also quite cruel until Battler made her notice that laughing at people being slaughtered is wrong.
As for Bern's purpose at this point I don't think she has any purpose whom Battler would like. Or well having a purpose doesn't justify one's actions. Even Hitler had a purpose in mind. The hypothesis that Bern's purpose is even remotely good doesn't have the slightest basis as of now.
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2010-01-15, 11:51 | Link #2203 |
[E]
Join Date: Mar 2008
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just stop it, please, it's kind of annoying.
I think gohda's diary also implied natsuhi being kinzo's lover. AFAIk, anti-fantasy is to prove that the crime could have been commited by humans, so for erika/bern to win using that aproach it does not matter if the culprit was krauss or natushi or anybody else, as long as they pinpoint one culprit, whom does not even has to be the real culprit, kind of like Episode 3 eva. mistery is all about finding the real culprit, which is apparenly softer because you are not "abusing" the innocent. |
2010-01-15, 12:16 | Link #2204 | |
Junior Member
Join Date: Jan 2010
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Given that, leaving Beato and Natsuhi exposed and helpless against Bern's attacks could be part of her plan. Battler isn't exactly hard to predict. I'm sure she knew that he would jump to their aid rather than supporting his supposed ally Erika, especially after piece Battler had done the same in Kinzo's study. Then, of course, there's the retrial which she is all too happy to grant to him. |
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2010-01-15, 16:14 | Link #2205 |
Member
Join Date: Jun 2009
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I kind of wonder about Lambda's motivations myself. She's been helping Battler off and on since she first appeared in Episode 2. Granted, she usually only helps him when he's about to lose.
But consider this- if she hadn't picked up where Beato left off and played through Episode 5, the whole trial charade would have never taken place. Without the trial, Battler wouldn't have been thoroughly trounced by Dlanor and Knox's Decalogue. Without that defeat, he wouldn't have taken the time to think through all the things Dlanor and Virgilia taught him, and he wouldn't have solved the mystery. Instead, he would have lounged around in the Golden Land, vainly trying to make sense of Beato's moves while Virgilia gives him the occasional pointer, and gotten noplace. The same thing would have happened if Lambda debunked Erika's theory by saying that Kinzo is dead with the red. The trial would have ended and it'd be back to business as usual for Battler. And remember, Lambda isn't just all too happy to give Battler a retrial, she even hands him the Game Master's position, status as a Sorcerer, overrules Bern's objections, and lets him win the new trial:Battler is not the culprit in any game. She could have trashed his crazy theory and given the win back to Erika, who would have had a mangled but still workable theory. Hell, when Dlanor was denying any red or blue regarding Kinzo, Lambda even hinted there was another option. Is Lambda helping Battler, hindering him, or trying to make the game reach a perpetual stalemate? |
2010-01-15, 16:45 | Link #2207 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Anyways, the witches seem to use red truth freely but if they really could then Bern would have her answer by now. She could just go down the list of names saying in red each time [name] is not the culprit. When she does not get red she has her answers. There has to be some sort of limit to the red they can use is the most probable answer in my opinion. |
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2010-01-15, 17:01 | Link #2208 |
Still bad at Japanese
Join Date: Sep 2009
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Virgillia did say in red that Battler was not the culprit. Not, "Ushiromiya Battler is not the culprit." Just Battler, refering to the one we've know as Battler throughout the entire sound novel. But that's only assuming that she meant our Battler, because, like you've said there are two Battler's.
But if we look a little deeper then that would mean that both Battler's are not the culprits and we can definitely rule out those two from the possible culprit list. |
2010-01-15, 17:18 | Link #2209 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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2010-01-15, 17:27 | Link #2210 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Your suggestion is boring. Immortals hate boredom, which is why they're evil. |
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2010-01-15, 17:41 | Link #2211 | |
I know we have bread!
Join Date: Oct 2009
Location: Chicago
Age: 40
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Anyways, Lambdadelta claimed the title of Game Master under the assumption that she is playing Battler. That way, she could have continued this series of games perpetually, albeit with her personal twists. But the fact that Bernkastel unexpectedly took over meant that Lambdadelta was likely to lose her bet. Remember, Dlanor was introduced by Bernkastel, not Lambdadelta. And strangely, Battler the Golden Sorcerer makes a better Game Master against Bernkastel than Lambdadelta does. But that's simply because he finally realized that there is a single absolute truth, and he can employ it. Edit: Granted, it probably means Lambdadelta will lose her bet anyways, but for her, it is better to make sure it goes on for at least a few more rounds than to kill it off immediately. |
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2010-01-15, 17:52 | Link #2212 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Fun? Bern raped what she could of that game in an attempt for a victory. She obviously does not care about the costs or the immorality, she does seem to like torturing others but if she found the true culprit she could do that after the trial anyways. I think it is unlikely that red can be used like that. The only reason that would not work with unlimited use of red truth is that none of the characters are the culprit. Which is very, very unlikely.
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2010-01-15, 18:38 | Link #2213 | ||
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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It goes Certainty > Endless > 'Miracles' > Certainty. Quote:
And witches (actually, all supernatural beings) have the power to speak the truth in red. I'm not exactly sure how it works, either, but Virgilia seems perfectly capable of using red freely even though she probably doesn't know what really happened in Ep5. |
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2010-01-15, 19:26 | Link #2214 | |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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For example Battler has seen Virgilia's red truth about Natsuhi being not the culprit, so Battler automatically was able to say in red that Natsuhi was not the culprit. You don't even need to be a witch to use red that way, as long as you know something you can say it in red. The trial is a separate thing, in the trial it was forbidden to humans to use red without providing some kind of proof to back it. Or more specifically it was forbidden to make use of it. Battler could still say that Natsuhi was innocent in red. However that was countered by Dlanor with the knox rule that forbids the detective from using supernatural agencies as a detective method. Witches are not bound to this limit, however they are still unable to say something in red unless they know it. It appears that Bernkastel as the witch of miracles is able to convert a lower probability theory into a 100% theory. In other words as long as she reaches an almost certainty on some fact she can ignore the lowest probability and make it 100% certain. That means she can repeat it in red.
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2010-01-15, 19:27 | Link #2215 | |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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If we assume Bern knows some of the rules of the game and Lambda has talked to Beatrice about the game before, seeing as they were kinda on the same side, they know enough to use red truth in specific situations. Then again, Battler pretty much did what I said could be done to figure out the culprit when Beatrice tried to deny he was part of the Ushiromia family. So, who knows? We do not know exactly how all these different color truths work exactly so asking why they aren't used in every situation won't get us anywhere. |
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2010-01-15, 19:28 | Link #2216 | |
Homo Ludens
Join Date: Nov 2007
Location: Canada
Age: 34
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Either way, how did Virgilia know for certain that Natsuhi isn't the culprit? Or does she know the Truth as well? |
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2010-01-15, 19:37 | Link #2217 |
別にいいけど
Join Date: Jul 2007
Location: forever lost inside a logic error
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She knows everything about Beatrice she probably knows everything about the game as well. After all she also disclosed red truths about Beatrice's motives. She also said in red that Battler isn't the culprit.
By the fact she used red even for the corpses of EP5 it appears she can see the gameboard. Also it appears that Battler could see the gameboard as well once he became the Game Master. I don't remember anything about witches being able to create red. Bern can sublimate Erika's theories in red, but that's basically the process that I described earlier. For witches to be able to create red, that would be kinda lame... However... as you know I believe that the "games" are fictional stories and therefore the Game Master can create them, that means the Game Master can create "facts" inside the game and then use the red about them, so what you state is indirectly true in that regard. However creating reds about the real world is impossible.
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2010-01-15, 20:08 | Link #2218 |
Intellectual Rapist
Join Date: Nov 2009
Location: 3 12151805142615
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Yea, I believe the same thing as you Jan-Poo, however I hold a second theory close to that one. They are in opposition but my second theory is less probable in my view. Batter is not the culprit. Rudolph is not the culprit. Kyrie is not the culprit. Krauss is not the culprit. Natsuhi is not the culprit. Jessica is not the culprit. Rosa is not the culprit. Maria is not the culprit. Eva is not the culprit. George is not the culprit. Kumasawa is not the culprit. Nanjo is not the culprit. Gohda is not the culprit. Genji is not the culprit. Kanon is not the culprit. Shanon is not the culprit. No, I do not take an antimystery stance but there are a few theories if true would back this up.Shanon and Kanon are the same person allowing another person to be on the island impersonating a person we currently know is on the island and has been introduced as such. Or Someone was killed before the game allowing a person to take the place of that person in disguise. I am in a hurry so I cannot keep going with my blue truth imitation crap but essentially Kanon, Nanjo, and/or Gohda are suspicious enough in my eyes to warrant them not being who they say they are.
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2010-01-15, 20:10 | Link #2219 |
[E]
Join Date: Mar 2008
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red text is a fact, that's all about it, it can be a fact for a specific fragment or it can be a fact for a group of fragments, that's all about it; all the talk about creating red text is unnecesary, it as only done for the trial's sake.
How so ? I don't rememebr a single red text saying natsuhi has never been kinzo's lover which is the only way to prove that. |
2010-01-15, 20:15 | Link #2220 | |
The Great Dine
Join Date: Feb 2009
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Trusting everything in red means you automatically do not trust anything not said in red. This makes more than 75% of the story utterly useless. |
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