Is watching anime or reading manga considered childish in Japan?

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Thank you for your insights, kj1980. Your posts just helped me understand a lot more about Murakami Haruki's novels. For the longest time I've always been merely amused by the myriad Western references and his protagonists dry humor and little else. But after reading your post I suddenly realized the abnormality, the individuality and the nonconformity his protagonists present in a rigid, homogenizing social structure.

However, your expose seems to also present a strange question into Japanese consumerism: An entire industry is founded on a product that has to be consumed in secret. Not only do adults have to buy, watch, or enjoy anime in secret, but from others' posts, so do most of the children. Not only that, but from my understanding, this industry thrives despite, or due to this hushed secrecy of the consumption of the product. The situation just seems so incredible to me that, massive capital (I think?) is put into the production of merchandise that run contrary to cultural consensus and risks (or not?) economic disasters (don't know the right word, never taken economics). It's almost absurdly comedic on par with Kurt Vonnegut's depiction of Bokonism in Cat's Cradle -- a religion that is prohibited by the state and punishable by death and yet practiced by every citizen including the dictator. Although, it may be that this is simply a niche market, though I doubt the strength of that stance.

Though I am somewhat interested in the cultural forces at work here, I'm more interested in the inherent values, or at least the perceived inherent values (or lack thereof) associated with anime and manga in the Japanese psyche. What do anime and manga represent, and what do they convey that runs contrary to the consensus of acceptable behavior, save the particular cases of psychopathic behavior related to them? If anime and manga simply dealt with strictly children's material (e.g. Tetsuwan Atom), or erotic material (e.g. ?? La Blue Girl?), then it wouldn't be a surprise for any consumer outside of the particular age or class or any other social division to be considered deviant. Yet, it is my perception that manga and anime have increasing diversified to become an all-around medium for creativity (though still lacking in many areas, I would point to Hoshi no Koe as a good example of anime as a medium for artistic creation). It is therefore unimaginable to me that anybody would look down on a medium for very little reason, other than an incomprehensible collective social consensus that seemingly based on nothing directly related to the medium itself.

Of course, I have to admit that very few of the anime and manga on the market (as far as I know) can constitute artistic creations. Many of them (most of the so-called "harem" anime, such as Love Hina, and quite a bit of shoujo romance like Hana Yori Dango, and shounen fighting manga, including Dragon Ball and many more) have little value beyond a mindless entertainment and a few hours of escape from reality. However, there are also many worthy anime and manga that surpass mindless entertainment into the realm of social critique (Kenshin OVA), philosophical rambling (NGEvangelion, PLANETES), and the art of story-telling (Angel's Egg, Spirited Away/Sen to Chihiro no Kamikakushi).

It is a difficult subject to tackle, and I've always been keenly aware of the audience-driven nature of movies, television series, newspapers, anime and manga, and pop culture in general. This neglect for artistic qualities (if such a thing does exist) seems to be a trait closely related to the creation of anime (and TV series, newspapers, and to a certain extent, movies) as a group effort. Because anime is mostly born from the consensus of a group, rather than the fruit of one or more persons' imagination, it is natural for the creators to convert any spark of genius into a marketing gimmick or rub it off entirely for impracticality. Instead of "saying something," anime and manga "show what people want to see," through fanservice, cliched plots, emotional rollercoasters that go no where, etc., etc. I think it's fair to compare anime and western soap opera. If you think about it, there are no dedicated soap opera fans in the west comparable to anime otaku, except maybe the stereotyped lazy, bored housewives (which may or may not exist).

(And just when I've thought all the way up to this point, another idea suddenly hit me with the full force of a bullet train: I've been a nerd for so long that I have totally forgotten that there are people in this world who are not nerds. What do they do to live, I wonder?)

[Leo_Otaku]

Originally Posted by SlugZilla

I mentioned where 20yrs old and up watching anime can be considered childish but teenagers are a whole nother ball park.

For teenagers ESPECIALLY, this could be a problem as bullying is VERY common in Middle and High Schools. Heck, bullying is one of the biggest issues concerning the Japanese youth today. So yeah, there is alot for even a teenager to worry about "coming out" about their anime hobby.
In middle school I think its normal to watch anime. But there is a possibility you can be bullied for watching a certain anime that might be considered childish for that age group. In high school there is a chance you could be bullied for watching anime, period. But bullying in Japan is really dumb cause you can be bullied for ANY LAME REASON.

Adults may find that teenagers watching anime is fine, but not from the perspective of teenagers themselves. Now not every teenager is going say that it's fine for them to watch anime or not. I *KNOW* alot of teenagers watch anime, and they won't openly admit it for fear of being socially rejected from their peers.

Yes very true I know lots of people who think that if people know they like anime they will become less popular. Me myslef I frankly don't give a damn what other people think about me. Sure it gets annoying if they distance themselves, but not everyone is alike.

Anyway people here ( in NA) think that people who like anime are childish instead of the japanese view. People will not be your friend anymore in some cases. But trhe views are different . I mean I collect toys from the 80's like Care Bears and My Little Pony. I wear my shirts and tell people I collect if the subject comes up. If they don't like it then screw them.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

...very few of the anime and manga on the market (as far as I know) can constitute artistic creations...

How is that any different from movies, music and literature? 90% of everything is crap. No medium is guaranteed to provide self-expression for those working in it, or a worthwhile experience for those partaking of it.

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

...If you think about it, there are no dedicated soap opera fans in the west comparable to anime otaku, except maybe the stereotyped lazy, bored housewives (which may or may not exist)...

Soap opera fans are definitely dedicated, and they aren't necessarily bored, lazy or housewives. There is at least one weekly magazine dedicated to soap operas and there are also internet forums.

[The Yellow Dwarf]

Originally Posted by babbito2k

How is that any different from movies, music and literature? 90% of everything is crap.

I agree, and I think I mentioned it slightly (very slightly). Although I do like the way you put it.

Soap opera fans are definitely dedicated, and they aren't necessarily bored, lazy or housewives. There is at least one weekly magazine dedicated to soap operas and there are also internet forums.

Thank you for that piece of information. Like I've said, I've been a nerd for so long I've totally forgotten the existence of normal people -- soap opera aficionados, for example.

Humans are such strange creatures that it's probably impossible to figure out how they work. If I was a little bit more cynical I would say that there's absolutely no point in even having a debate about whether or not anime and manga are childish: those who think so will continue to think so, and those who don't, won't, and life goes on. I mean, what's wrong with being in the chess club? And as for why otaku are shunned as social deviants, we probably will never get to the bottom of that.

[LuciaMelody]

Originally Posted by The Yellow Dwarf

If I was a little bit more cynical I would say that there's absolutely no point in even having a debate about whether or not anime and manga are childish: those who think so will continue to think so, and those who don't, won't, and life goes on.

But views do change, some things that were not acceptable before are acceptable now. ^_~ As anime becomes more and more popular here in US - I think it will become more and more acceptable here.

As for Japan - I was very surprised that it is so secret in there....o_o I always imagined alot of people being proud of anime/manga since this is very it originated from ^-^ And people were saying that adults read manga - but I never knew they read "golf postures" manga (lol, I didn't know such existed) This thread was soo informative - u guys are great!

I have another question - does gender matter??? Like is it more acceptable for a girl to like anime?

[arias]

You know.. it was kind of sad to hear that singers for anime OP/ED are considered "second string". But after thinking abit I decided that it didn't matter. As long as the voice fits and the song is great, I don't really care where the heck the singer is on the popularity polls ^_^

Case in point; I thought that many songs have the *perfect* voice to accompany it; like Maaya Sakamoto in Escaflowne's Yubiwa, Shimokawa Mikuni for the Full Metal Panic songs, the singer for Ninku's ED (mm. I like that timbre tone of the starting lines) and such.

For more familiarity, we might want to take the local North American gaming scene for reference. Some RPGs get A-listers, like how Final Fantasy 8 had Faye Wong to sing the theme song, but for one million US she definitely was not worth it dollar for dollar. In comparison, Xenogears had Joanne Hogg, a completely unknown singer from the Irish band Iona (I think, I forgot) to sing the ED and it was -fantastic-. Same goes for Xenosaga Ep II; who features this lady called Margaret Dorn. What if we had Britney Spears sing the songs for games? She's A-list, but I would *vomit* at some of her trademark vocal sounds that goes like "Eeow"

I remember Ayumi Hamasaki did a song for Thousand Arms; and that was great as well. At the end of the day, I think that although "status" and such might matter to the singers and the industry itself, what's really important is the -product-. If I hear the most fantastic, fitting song for an anime OP sung by some old bum randomly picked from the streets, I honestly wouldn't care.

[H2-FumoGuu]

Is Gackt washed up yet? He let himself be used as a character in Bujingai and was recently involved in another second rate video game tho I don't remember what it was. Anyway Gackt is more useful as a character than a singer.

[Vanilla]

in america most of my friends find it on the whole pretty koo... well the asian ones.. and were all 15-16

i have a few serious hardcore friends who watch naruto etc cus the fighting is koo

[[[IronMaidenHikari]]]

Originally Posted by Xargs

I have a Japanese friend who says the above is generally considered childish among the Japanese public.

On the other hand, I've read numerous books and articles about the massive popularity of anime and manga in Japan from children to middle age people. Everything from telephone book thick manga to Japanese salarymen reading violent ero-manga on the subway.

I've been to Japan and seen the massive shelves of anime and manga. Although, I've never seen ero-manga being read on a subway.

This leaves me a bit confused. If such things had such a large stigma attached to them, then they wouldn't be nearly as popular.

Maybe some of the Japanese people who frequent the forum can shed some light on this.

Ok, it really depends, if you are watching things like DoReMi or Pita Ten, then its childish, if you are watching stuff like Cowboy Bepbop, I don't even think that is suited for kids... er... you get me, don't you??^^;;

[Archaic]

Originally Posted by H2-FumoGuu

Is Gackt washed up yet? He let himself be used as a character in Bujingai and was recently involved in another second rate video game tho I don't remember what it was. Anyway Gackt is more useful as a character than a singer.

Last I saw him, he was on a commercial for some kind of candy. Not sure when he last released a album though.

[MrMonkey]

Originally Posted by H2-FumoGuu

Is Gackt washed up yet? He let himself be used as a character in Bujingai and was recently involved in another second rate video game tho I don't remember what it was. Anyway Gackt is more useful as a character than a singer.

He had a "cameo" of sorts in Metal Gear Solid 2. In the first half of the game there os a guard who wears headphones and is nodding his head to music. If you kill him and take his dogtags you see his name is "Gackt" :P

[KristopherZ]

Originally Posted by kj1980

Much like Genshiken, our university club also had several female members - and they would openly discuss about their love for anime, doujinshis, and cosplaying within the club - but once on the "outside," they would mingle socially by keeping their hobby as a secret. So it is understandable that as their male counterparts, female otakus would also keep their hobbies as secret to avoid stigmatism among their own social lives.

You know, I think there are more similarities with the USA and Japan than more people realize. There are many people in our country that basically lead "double lives". When they are around the social circles in work they act completely different than they do with friends and with family. That is because many people have hobbies that they can be embarrased about that they don't want to share with coworkers with the fear of looking like an idiot or someone who they can't relate too.

For example, when I was working in the media section of Best Buy, I sold videogames and DVD's. I was and always will be a huge fan of anime, yet I never even acknowleged that I like anime as a sales person even when I would talk to anime fans in the anime section. The reason? I was told by my boss that I have too look professional and that means that I can't talk about things that the customer couldn't relate to. That means no Anime.

Originally Posted by kj1980

Now, here is something that really amazed me when I was at Anime Expo this year. I say people carrying plastic bags with anime characters on them without any sign of embrassment. That really amazed me how open American culture is. Here in Japan, you go to Comike and you see vendors giving out paper bags with cute girls on them, people will immediately fold them neatly and take out their own paper bag they've brought from home (usually some generic one from a department store) and use that instead. Why? Because they don't want strangers to know that they've just come from an anime related convention on the train ride back home. If you were seen holding a bag with a cute anime girl on it, people will immediately distance themselves away from you and start talking behind your back "man, that guy/girl over there must be an otaku - have they no shame in openly expressing themselves? See this is why otakus are all the same - the are not only embarrassing themselves but us at the same time and they don't even care." Hence, people bring their own paper bags to anime conventions to carry their stuff home on something that isn't plainly noticeable that they are otakus - it doesn't matter even if they give out paper/plastic bags at the event - they won't use it as it automatically labels them as weirdos. Then why do companies make paper bags at events? Because they are collectible items - otakus want it, they won't use it, but they'll get it.

I guess that is why I am glad to be an American. Speaking of that, you where in Anime Expo this year also? That is pretty cool, we may have had the chance to meet each other, but considering there where 25,000 guests in the duration of anime expo, I doubt that it would be easy.

Going back on track, the huge amount of guests at Anime Expo is showing that slowly but steadily anime and manga are becoming more accepted. If you would go into any bookstore, more than likely there will be people that never heard of anime 3 or 4 years ago reading the new issue of Shonen Jump, or the newest volume of their favorite manga. In Fact the USA is basically becoming like Japan, where Manga is getting more mainstream respect, while Anime is still viewed as "for kids" or "for nerds." I can buy any volume of manga from Barnes and Noble, Borders, Anime Club, or Suncoast, and they would not look at me strangely. Where as if I would buy an anime DVD from Target, Best Buy, or any other store, I would get stares from somebody. So I believe that manga is getting more mainstream recognition. There are even people that would never even look at an anime having manga collections of 50 or 60 because Manga doesn't share the same stigma that Anime does in the USA.

[Castelak]

This is the most informative thing a person should read if they have any interest in japanese animation. Could anyone else give more examples of such and such anime that are accepted and those that are shunned? (i.e. Naruto, Love Hina, etc) So very interesting... it explains so much why japanese always acted so wierd around me when I asked stuff about anime.

Such as...

"Hey how's Japan?"
"Japan is very nice."
"What do you like to do?"
"Oh I like to play video games and stuff ^^;"
"Yeah I like japanese animation ^^"
"Oh?"
"Yeah what's the more popular anime over there right now?"
"Umm I think Fruit Basket (what they said at the time)... I'm not sure"
"Oh okay cool"

I mean I like a lot of japanese animation, but I believe ero-manga, hentai, loli, etc... it's all messed up and should be looked down upon NOT THE PEOPLE WHO DO IT so don't flame me... I wonder how I would be viewed by Japan? ^^;

[KreleanX]

Its seems kind of rediculous to ask such a general question, about a country generally. There are people who think anime is for psyco child malesting perverts who wana see naked bunny women. and there are people who apreciate it too. Anime is so diverse that for someone to say that "all anime is childish" is automatically an uninformed statement. To say that all anime is one thing in general is impossible. anime could be about 2 carrots who find a turtle in the woods and have sex with it, or it could be about something completely realistic and even leave us with somekind of moral lesson.

My point being, If it is considered to be childish in Japan, It cant be seen the same way by everyone!

[anime_layer]

I think it's important to consider how manga evolved diffrently in Japan and in the western world.
The start of manga and anime were actually american comic strips in newspapers and disney movies. A long time the only comics you would find in japan would either be comic strips or educational comics. Like here in the western world, animation/comic was either for kids (disney), humor (newspaper strips) or education.
It was only in the sixties (iirc) when this began to change. While in the western world the readers of children comics would cast off their hobby, the japanese carried it on. This led to some very popular mangas for an older audience and with the fans growing older, manga could steadily get a more tight grip on society. You could say that a certain acceptance of comics goes together with your childhood expirience. In Japan reading comics is not that popular with older folks (40/50+, the generation that had her childhood before mangas grew with their readers).

For being childish, you have to consider the target audience for a certain anime/manga. The vast majority (shounen/shoujo) are targeted at teenagers. "Healthy" would be if you read the manga that are targeted at your age. Starting with kid's manga, teen's manga and finally adult manga. There's nothing wrong with enjoying a shounen/shoujo manga if your 30 but if you devote your life to it it gets the touch of living in a fantasy world (like the devoted Disney fans here). Escapism is a healthy thing but too much might be the opposite.

[Castelak]

For my little corner of the US (Rochester, MN), I can say that anime/manga seems to have a general acceptance. Barnes and Noble, Best Buy, Gamestop, Target, etc all carry these items and people don't seem ashamed at all to buy or look at it. When I went to the manga section in B&N I laughed inside at what kinda people were around there looking at it, I would of never thought they liked that kinda stuff! Sure it's kind of a secret hobby but most people I know aren't ashamed to talk about it, they just don't bring it up unless they know the people.

On the other hand... I have a self-intro speech to give tomorrow and I'll mention a little of my bizarre interests others won't always share (i.e. Video game collecting and Anime). I dunno, if I ever go to Japan I won't care what people think, I'll just proclaim the image of the casual American Anime watcher. In other words, I'll be wearing normal clothes like I always do and look at manga/anime here and there and not be ashamed. Besides, they'll probobly think "Oh well he's a foreigner so he doesn't know what he's buying." ^^;

[MikoKikyo]

Originally Posted by Castelak

For my little corner of the US (Rochester, MN), I can say that anime/manga seems to have a general acceptance. Barnes and Noble, Best Buy, Gamestop, Target, etc all carry these items and people don't seem ashamed at all to buy or look at it. When I went to the manga section in B&N I laughed inside at what kinda people were around there looking at it, I would of never thought they liked that kinda stuff! Sure it's kind of a secret hobby but most people I know aren't ashamed to talk about it, they just don't bring it up unless they know the people.

Here it's basically the same. Like others here I'm really surprised at what I learned in this thread... I always expected the Japanese to be somewhat proud of the anime tradition since it's so unique to their culture. I know a lot of people who watch anime here, and none of them hide it, most importantly, no one I know in my school would think less of you for watching anime or would make fun of you for it. Maybe in middle school, but not later than that, because then most educated people realize the diverse nature of anime (that anime is more than pokemon and dbz).. Sometimes during lunch break me and a friend start drawing fanart and more often than not a crowd gathers around to see. Maybe anime itself is considered childish, but in my community at least, no one would think you're childish or silly for watching anime (ok maybe a little nerdy ) so in general, people aren't publicly ashamed of it.

[babbito2k]

Originally Posted by anime_layer

...The start of manga and anime were actually american comic strips in newspapers and disney movies...

Manga is derived to some extent from 16th-century woodblock prints. But it's also true that American "funnies" influenced manga. And although Disney has had a very long run in the animation industry, Japanese animation predates Disney's first animated features.

[locknoir]

Damn reading all this _really_ suprised me. I live in holland and anime is here in the shape of : Dragonball Z, Pokemon and Yu gi Oh. And people really dig it, about all my classmates in school watch DBZ and used to watch pokemon ( when it was new ). And they don't really understand that the orgins of this series is really japanese, they just think it's cool. And when I tell them it's japanese they're like " O intresting " and then start talking about the episode that was aired the previous night. And when I mention I watch anime, no one really cares, they say it's cool and never mention it. I got some female friends ( both from asia dno which country ) sometimes ask me to download anime music for them, and ask if I know certain japanese singers.

I often talked to my mate about how we'd "Love" to life in japan. We thought it would be anime heaven and that people like Yoko Kanno almost have their personal shrines, but damn did this suprise me. But how do Japanes persons think about tourist for example? Let's say I go to japan and buy some anime, and I wouldn't be afraid to show it, would they think I'm weird as well? Seeing as I'm not japanese.

Damn, I have to thank you all for making alot of things clear ;_; I'll have double thought abouts worshipping Japan now :X.

O yeah one more questions. I heard dragonball Z was REALLY populair in Japan, so did they break the habbit of not talking about anime for once, for this series? Or was it again only in anime clubs?

[mantidor]

Originally Posted by locknoir

I often talked to my mate about how we'd "Love" to life in japan. We thought it would be anime heaven and that people like Yoko Kanno almost have their personal shrines, but damn did this suprise me. But how do Japanes persons think about tourist for example? Let's say I go to japan and buy some anime, and I wouldn't be afraid to show it, would they think I'm weird as well? Seeing as I'm not japanese.

you are already weird since you are not japanese, its sad but true, japanese arent very fond of foreigners.

Originally Posted by babbito2k

Manga is derived to some extent from 16th-century woodblock prints. But it's also true that American "funnies" influenced manga. And although Disney has had a very long run in the animation industry, Japanese animation predates Disney's first animated features.

thats true about the manga, but although there are really old pieces of animation in Japan (and probably also in USA), one can say that the one that made anime to take off was Osamu Tezuka, who was HIGHLY influenced by disney movies, so at the end, it was really Disney the guy who started all, at that time it was thought that an animated movie was a stupid idea, but he changed that, he actually is the one responsable for the actual state of animation in the world.