[Manga] Sasuke is stronger than Yondaime

[james0246]

^That wasn't quite Milan's point. Specifically, you've mentioned several times that it was Susano'o and the chakra used to power the technique that drove Sasuke into a corner (as you say, it "envelop[s]" him), but, in reality, Sasuke is driven back due to fear plain and simple (it is fear of Itachi and his Susano'o), and not due to the physical manifistation of Itachi's chakra. That is the difference that Milan was pointing out.

That being said, everything else you've said (well, I've only skimmed, so I really shouldn't say "everything"), seems more or less correct (and it repeats what Hunter already laid out a page ago). Susano'o is a solid barrier of pure chakra that fully extends around the user. It is similar to the Bijuu Shroud that all Jinchuuriki can use (well, besides Gaara), in that it completely engulfs the user (though Susano'o is better because it provides real defense, unlike the Bijuu Shroud which simply enhances abilities) and there is no hollow center just a complete extension.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by james0246

^That wasn't quite Milan's point. Specifically, you've mentioned several times that it was Susano'o and the chakra used to power the technique that drove Sasuke into a corner (as you say, it "envelop[s]" him).

Sasuke backed up initially because he couldn't find any effective method of penetrating Susanoo, but in the end it was Itachi's Susanoo which prevents Sasuke from mounting an attack on Itachi at close range.

So yea, he backed up himself initially (before Itachi was at striking range).

[morbosfist]

But it still isn't Susanoo itself keeping Sasuke from moving. It is fear. Sasuke doesn't attack because he's lost all hope of winning, not because he is incapable (not that he had anything left to do it with). He was scared by an enemy with unimaginable powers who just wouldn't be brought down. No nonsense about pressure holding him, no close range blocking. He just lost the will.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

But it still isn't Susanoo itself keeping Sasuke from moving. It is fear. Sasuke doesn't attack because he's lost all hope of winning, not because he is incapable (not that he had anything left to do it with). He was scared by an enemy with unimaginable powers who just wouldn't be brought down. No nonsense about pressure holding him, no close range blocking. He just lost the will.

Seriously, if the allmighty enemy suddenly cough bloods, you would know that this is your freaking chance.

Sasuke is not going to abandon a chance at winning simply because Itachi showed him how powerful he was before he started coughing blood and weakening.

It was Susanoo which protects Itachi even as Itachi was so close to Sasuke - so close that a punch would've ended everything. But the punch never came thanks to Susanoo.

[morbosfist]

When the almighty enemy coughs blood, he used his chance. It failed horribly. You seem to have a skewed idea of how things went down, so let me spell it out for you.

Itachi has just defeated Orochimaru. He's about to start walking when he suddenly hacks up blood. Sasuke sees an opportunity and tosses some exploding tags on a kunai. Shield blocks it. Sasuke gets more tags and tries again. Shield blocks it. Sasuke tries a desperate stab attack and gets thrown on his ass while his sword flies off into the distance. He stands back up only to find there's a wall behind him and Itachi in front of him. He freezes up and Itachi closes in.

This blood-coughing, half-dead enemy blocked everything he threw at him after the blood cough happened, not before, so stop fixating on that. Look at his "oh shit" face after every attack. That is fear. He knows he's lost, and every failed attack is hammering that point home. Sasuke tried to take advantage and couldn't. When you're so weak that an obviously near-death foe is still leagues beyond you, you start being afraid. It had nothing to do with Susanoo holding him down. It was fear, no two ways about it.

[james0246]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Seriously, if the allmighty enemy suddenly cough bloods, you would know that this is your freaking chance.

Itachi had been coughing up blood the entire fight (not to mention his eyes had started going, and the venereal disease he got from Hana was acting up), yet his half-dead coughing-up-blood body still managed to kick Sasuke's ass. After witnessing his final plan (Kirin) fail spectacularly, his chakra completely drained, and then witnessing Itachi effortlessly destroy Orochimaru, Sasuke had finally snapped and his will to fight had been crushed.

That being said, why are we even discussing this? If you want to prove the stability of Susano'o this is the most ass-backwards way of arguing the issue. As Milan has shown, Sasuke was clearly not physically confined by Susano'o, so arguing the issue is essentially pointless to the main discussion (which you are correct about)

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

Itachi has just defeated Orochimaru. He's about to start walking when he suddenly hacks up blood. Sasuke sees an opportunity and tosses some exploding tags on a kunai. Shield blocks it. Sasuke gets more tags and tries again. Shield blocks it. Sasuke tries a desperate stab attack and gets thrown on his ass while his sword flies off into the distance. He stands back up only to find there's a wall behind him and Itachi in front of him. He freezes up and Itachi closes in.

All of the above attacks are launched from outside of Susanoo. If interior of Susanoo is really hollow, as falsely claimed by you, Sasuke would realize it and use the opportunity of him being inside of Susanoo to strike down Itachi.

And if the interior of Susanoo is really hollow, Itachi would of course know about it too, and he wouldn't be so confident in moving towards Sasuke until he was in front of him.

Obviously Itachi knew that Sasuke wouldn't be able to counter attack, even if Sasuke is inside of his Susanoo.

He knows he's lost, and every failed attack is hammering that point home. Sasuke tried to take advantage and couldn't. Ihad nothing to do with Susanoo holding him down. It was fear, no two ways about it.

Hahaha, if I know that the allmighty enemy can be KO-ed with a punch, and if I am able to deliver the punch, I wouldn't even be afraid of him anymore.

Sasuke never counter attack because he couldn't, not because he suddenly became a girl after everything he had went through.

Voluntarily sacrificing the final opportunity to overcome the enemy, especially when the oh-so-powerful enemy was on the verge of collaspe is not logical. You are entitled to your illogical opinion, however.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

All of the above attacks are launched from outside of Susanoo. If interior of Susanoo is really hollow, as falsely claimed by you, Sasuke would realize it and use the opportunity of him being inside of Susanoo to strike down Itachi.

And if the interior of Susanoo is really hollow, Itachi would of course know about it too, and he wouldn't be so confident in moving towards Sasuke until he was in front of him.

Obviously Itachi knew that Sasuke wouldn't be able to counter attack, even if Sasuke is inside of his Susanoo.

Or Sasuke is too scared to realize it. You're again assuming that Sasuke is remaining level-headed throughout this entire thing, when he is clearly not. As james said, you've chosen the absolute worst possible way to try to prove your point, as it is demonstratively wrong.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Hahaha, if I know that the allmighty enemy can be KO-ed with a punch, and if I am able to deliver the punch, I wouldn't even be afraid of him anymore.

Sasuke never counter attack because he couldn't, not because he suddenly became a girl after everything he had went through.

Voluntarily sacrificing the final opportunity to overcome the enemy, especially when the oh-so-powerful enemy was on the verge of collaspe is not logical. You are entitled to your illogical opinion, however.

Not all humans behave logically, especially exhausted ones facing an invincible opponent.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by james0246

Itachi had been coughing up blood the entire fight (not to mention his eyes had started going, and the venereal disease he got from Hana was acting up), yet his half-dead coughing-up-blood body still managed to kick Sasuke's ass. After witnessing his final plan (Kirin) fail spectacularly, his chakra completely drained, and then witnessing Itachi effortlessly destroy Orochimaru, Sasuke had finally snapped and his will to fight had been crushed.

Itachi was coughing blood the entire fight but prior to him being literally next to Sasuke, it was impossible to penetrate Susanoo from outside.

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Morbosfist tried to argue that Sasuke would be able to hit Itachi inside of his Susanoo, but he refrained from attacking Itachi from within Susanoo because Itachi blocked all his previous attacks from outside, LOL. Not making sense.

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I was arguing that Sasuke understood that even within Susanoo, his attacks would simply be blocked by Susanoo's chakra from within, so any attack is meaningless, and that's the reason why Sasuke broke, he knew there was nothing he could do to prevent Itachi from taking his eye.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Morbosfist tried to argue that Sasuke would be able to hit Itachi inside of his Susanoo, but he refrained from attacking Itachi from within Susanoo because Itachi blocked all his previous attacks from outside, LOL. Not making sense.

You just insist on not getting the point. He was too afraid to attack. His attacks weren't working and he lost hope. He was too scared to see anything but his impending death.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

I was arguing that Sasuke understood that even within Susanoo, his attacks would simply be blocked by Susanoo's chakra from within, so any attack is meaningless, and that's the reason why Sasuke broke, he knew there was nothing he could do to prevent Itachi from taking his eye.

If he knew his attacks were useless, why attack that shield with an utterly futile sword strike? You're contradicting yourself. You're saying he won't attack when he knows it won't work, yet he does so anyway mere pages earlier.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

You just insist on not getting the point. He was too afraid to attack. His attacks weren't working and he lost hope. He was too scared to see anything

You are arguing that Sasuke was too afraid to attack Itachi from within Susanoo, based on the fact that Itachi's Susanoo blocked all his attacks from outside Susanoo. LOL.

If he knew his attacks were useless, why attack that shield with an utterly futile sword strike? You're contradicting yourself. You're saying he won't attack when he knows it won't work, yet he does so anyway mere pages earlier.

Sasuke knew that irespective of whether the attack was launched inside or outside of Susanoo, the effect would be the same - Susanoo would protect Itachi at all cost. Hence, he lost all hope.

You, however, are trying to argue that Sasuke lost all hope after he knew Susanoo can be breached from within, but never do it because of he was too afraid of Itachi for blocking all of his attacks from outside.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Sasuke knew that irespective of whether the attack was launched inside or outside of Susanoo, the effect would be the same - Susanoo would protect Itachi at all cost. Hence, he lost all hope.

You, however, are trying to argue that Sasuke lost all hope after he knew Susanoo can be breached from within, but never do it because of he was too afraid of Itachi for blocking all of his attacks from outside.

That is not what I am arguing at all. You're twisting my words. I said he was too scared to attack. He could have hit Itachi had he tried, but by this point he was too scared to even try.

The fact is, he did not attack because he was scared. No matter how much you try to twist and turn the scenario, that never changes. He could move inside Susanoo. It's been proven. It has nothing to do with his inaction.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

That is not what I am arguing at all. You're twisting my words. I said he was too scared to attack. He could have hit Itachi had he tried, but by this point he was too scared to even try.

I'm not twisting at all. That's exactly what you are trying to say: Sasuke knew he can hit Itachi from within Susanoo, but never do so because he realized all his previous attacks were blocked from the outside! Again, it's not making any sense.

. He could move inside Susanoo. It's been proven. It has nothing to do with his inaction.

Wrong, as much 'shaking' as he is capable of, he cannot move at all inside of Susanoo. He was not trying to grab Itachi's arm when Itachi was reaching for his eye. He was not trying to struggle as he was incapable of any significant motion.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

I'm not twisting at all. That's exactly what you are trying to say: Sasuke knew he can hit Itachi from within Susanoo, but never do so because he realized all his previous attacks were blocked from the outside! Again, it's not making any sense.

Honestly, will you pay attention? I've repeated myself on this issue too many times and you still refuse to get a very simple point. No, I'm not saying he knew he could. Let. Me. Be. Clear. After his attacks failed, he was too scared to try. He did not realize he could attack, or move, or make the slightest effort to defend himself. All that was going through his mind was his impending doom. Nothing more, nothing less, so stop trying to twist my words to say anything else.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

Wrong, as much 'shaking' as he is capable of, he cannot move at all inside of Susanoo. He was not trying to grab Itachi's arm when Itachi was reaching for his eye. He was not trying to struggle as he was incapable of any significant motion.

Which is completely wrong, as Milan proved. You need to give this up. THere are a lot better ways to prove the point. You've focused on a flawed one.

[Rydrallen]

Originally Posted by morbosfist

After his attacks failed, he was too scared to try. He did not realize he could attack, or move, or make the slightest effort to defend himself. All that was going through his mind was his impending doom. Nothing more, nothing less, so stop trying to twist my words to say anything else.

You assume he was too scared to try attacking from within on what basis? On the basis that Itachi blocked all his attacks launched from outside his Susanoo. That's the whole basis for your argument.

Really, you are simply saying that Sasuke can attack Itachi from within Susanoo, but refrained from doing so after witnessing all his attacks from outside Susanoo blocked by Susanoo and became afraid that attacking from within is equally futile, even after he knew there is a space (obviously not true) inside Susanoo allowing him to strike.

Which is completely wrong, as Milan proved. You need to give this up. THere are a lot better ways to prove the point. You've focused on a flawed one.

I've proven the whole point. There was no space inside of Susanoo which would otherwise allow Sasuke to strike down an Itachi who was on the verge of collaspe. I am not buying your little theory that he was too afraid to attempt an attack under the hypothethical situation that he was free to attack Itachi inside of his Susanoo, but was too chicken to try.

[morbosfist]

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

You assume he was too scared to try attacking from within on what basis? On the basis that Itachi blocked all his attacks launched from outside his Susanoo. That's the whole basis for your argument.

Really, you are simply saying that Sasuke can attack Itachi from within Susanoo, but refrained from doing so after witnessing all his attacks from outside Susanoo blocked by Susanoo and became afraid that attacking from within is equally futile, even after he knew there is a space (obviously not true) inside Susanoo allowing him to strike.

You really do insist on maintaining this ignorance at all costs. It's getting annoying. Get off this obsession about where the attacks came from. No, he did not realize he could attack. He was too scared to realize that. After all his attacks failed, regardless of how they failed, he came to the conclusion that he could not win and did not consider any other possibility. He did not know there was an empty space there, because he was too scared to see it. All he knew is that he was going to die.

Originally Posted by Rydrallen

I've proven the whole point. There was no space inside of Susanoo which would otherwise allow Sasuke to strike down an Itachi who was on the verge of collaspe. I am not buying your little theory that he was too afraid to attempt an attack under the hypothethical situation that he was free to attack Itachi inside of his Susanoo, but was too chicken to try.

And Milan already proved you wrong. He could move, he didn't. Susanoo wasn't holding him. He was afraid.

[iBeast]

Wow 2 pages of debate over whether Sasuke was scared or not lol...why wouldn't he scared in that position? That is a technique hardly anyone in Naruto has ever seen before...

[solidguy]

Lol. Yondaime would beat Sasuke but not by much. And not if Kishi decides who wins.

[tetsuo69]

if sasuke can copy yondaime tel skill why hasnt he copy tobi XD?

[Alchemist007]

Maybe you can't copy unique MS techniques, which I'm assuming that is.