2010-12-20, 12:38 | Link #201 | |
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2010-12-20, 12:46 | Link #203 | |
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2010-12-20, 14:49 | Link #204 | |||
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You have it backwards. I'm the one pointing out that the "Espadas are VL" case is up to semantics and interpretation; I have no opinion either way. xD Quote:
2.) So I suppose every creature and individual which has been called "Captain Level" went through a captains examination, including Three Captains plus the Head Captain, or was recommended by Six captains and approved by three others, or defeated the previous captain in a battle (witnessed by at least 200 Squad members)? The characters in Bleach CONSTANTLY compare things with how powerful they are to other OFFICIAL species/officer level. Come on; take Bleach into context, why dontcha? Quote:
I'm not arguing either way, I am casting an assumption into doubt, where it should be and remain until it is confirmed which, knowing TK, won't be anytime soon. |
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2010-12-20, 15:12 | Link #205 |
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When you take things into context (like this), it's best to factor in ALL of the evidence the series provides. So when you consider there's hardly any proof at all to suggest a VL is any stronger than an adjuchas lvl arrancar beyond one characters statements that have been translated several different ways, to mean several different things, I seem to be the only one among us using the word "level" in the proper context. Because if most of the Espada were merely as strong as non-arrancar Vasto Lorde's, that notion leads to gaping plot holes that I already discussed.
On the other hand, if the Espada were mostly of the Vasto Lorde "level" turned into arrancer, then that makes much more sense. I even managed to find one manga scanlation that directly suggests the word "level" to be used in the exact context I'm advocating. Spoiler for saving page space:
Of course, this is also part of the same shred of evidence I've been claiming has been translated and interpreted several different ways. So take it as you will. But this is the scanlation I'm going with as this is the one that most appropriate fits in with the "context" of the situation. And when you consider that 9 out of the 10 espada have either been proven to be VL's or have no proof to suggest they're anything less, I'd say it proves my point all the more when you take Kubo's statements into consideration. Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-20 at 15:27. |
2010-12-20, 15:24 | Link #206 | |||
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And, unfortunately, TK is who we have to base our facts upon, as inconsistent and/or subjective as they are. Quote:
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Vasto Lorde were SPECIFICALLY mentioned to be above captain level (again with the "levels"), whether that is true or not, it is the only specific mention of just how powerful they are. Take that with the feact that the Espada were under orders to...uh...find the Vasto Lorde, it is simply not smart to take it for granted that they are Vasto Lorde. Yep. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten by Kendo. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was killed by a slice to the waist. An arrancar Vasto Lorde suffered death by digested hand. An arrancar Vasto Lorde was beaten at a children's game. All of their victors were also at or below average captain level. :/ Oh, and Tite Kubo meant to say they...erm...WERE Vasto Lorde. Like I said, I am not saying they aren't. Just pointing out that we shouldn't just assume they are. They are arrancar, and by being so, they were Vasto Lorde Level. That simply goes to show how powerful Vasto Lorde would be if they were arrancar, and why Aizen was seeking them. With the Espada. But forgive me. I suppose I simply don't have enough context, obviously. I should take "Level" as a biological process seriously, when it is used countless times as a power/reiatsu-comparison. |
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2010-12-20, 15:25 | Link #207 | |
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2010-12-20, 15:41 | Link #208 | |
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would also like to point out again that this ~Captain-level is quite vague
we have the previous Kenpachi, who was KILLED by ONE STRIKE by our Kenny - a guy in rags who can't do anything except swing his sword like a man possessed and who at that point possibly didn't know what a zanpakuto or kido is Sajin, who is .. big .. and his Bankai is .. big Hitsugaya, who can spam ice and has a pretty time limit for his Bankai then there're Shunsui, Unohana, Ukitake, Urahara, Yoruichi, Byakuya, Shinji .. AIZEN was a Captain too Quote:
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2010-12-20, 15:46 | Link #209 | ||||||||
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Nel (former no. 3) defeated Noi's attackers and was left unscathed. The enemies that gave him trouble were no match for Nel. Privaron < Noitora (no.8) << Nel. What I'm wondering is how exactly you assume all of them stronger than a Vastro Lorde. When their strengths vary so much. Quote:
1) There was anime-only flashback of Halibel being outclassed by adjuchas arrancar. Because of this, any arrancar must outclass non-arrancar VL. 2) The Epsada were all defeated and you believe that them being much weaker than we were lead to believe is the only explanation for it. But you don't take into account how they actually lost or how they fought and look only at the end result of the fights Quote:
1) vastro lorde menos combat is above that of the captains' 2) We are short 3 captains 3) The fact above combined with Aizen leading 10 or more arrancarized VL, would mean sure defeat for SS Histugaya did not say that every VL's strength greater than Yamamoto's. And certainly did not mention that he estimated Aizen had already found that number after he had just stated SS unsure of their numbers. Quote:
Spoiler for Soifon can't follow Barragan's Sonido:
That's Barragan. Unlreleased. Leaving Soifon in shock with his speed. You can say Soifon's weak or any other technicality used to cry foul whenever an Espada shows superiority over a captain. Strength is strength. If certain ability allows an Espada to match a captain then they are on captain-level strength. Quote:
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But anyways, I think I've said my piece. Not that Kubo didn't have contradictions and inconsistencies with the strength levels, but I think overall your impression of how strong VL were actually supposed to be was a bit skewed to begin with.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2010-12-20 at 16:36. |
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2010-12-20, 16:24 | Link #210 |
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Well, TBH, That whole statement was not really a point I am making myself, just one that the Manga makes. But if I were to put them on a scale of 1-10, I would have Yama/Aizen as #1, and Mayuri/Komamura at #10. That's just off the top of my head; a vague, general list. Nothing concrete.
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2010-12-20, 19:05 | Link #211 | |||||||||||||||||||
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Also the third part of that statement you mentioned is particularly interesting to me. Because the statement coincides with a point I previously brought up based on a scan I just posted. It further confirms that Aizen was pursuing "arrancarized VL" as in Vasto Lordes he can turn into Arrancar. On top of that, I already proved that it's just as likely for the 9 of the 10 espada to be VL's since there's no way to officially prove any of them are adjuchas. And no one has presented any evidence as of yet to prove me wrong on this. I also provided evidence to strongly suggest WW was a VL. This means we have a plausible enough possibility to suggest Aizen did have 10 VL arrancar upon entering the war. Quote:
That happened while Soifon was still under the initial effects of Barry's ability (which I just stated was slowing her down). So of course he was fast enough to get the jump on her. She hadn't even completely figured out the true nature of his ability just yet. And once again, I refer you to Omaeda, who's speed proved ample enough to avoid certain death during the moments when he was doing everything he could to stay out of his abilities range. Quote:
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Right back at you. And don't worry, I think I'm finished saying my piece as well. To those reading this, feel free to have the final words. But don't expect anymore in-depth or lengthy replies. Because this is getting awfully time consuming, tiresome, and vexing. Clearly no one here is going to prove to me that VL level menos are stronger than Adjuchas level arrancar. Conversely, it's apparently silly for me to try and convince anyone of the opposite. Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-20 at 19:34. |
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2010-12-20, 19:15 | Link #212 | ||||
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2010-12-20, 19:45 | Link #213 | |||||||||||||
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It's the context of the discussion at the time I look to, along with every "Captain Level/Power/Reiatsu/whatever-you-want-to-call-it comparison. It happens all. The.Time. It's rote by now. If something powerful comes along, it is automatically filed under the term "Captain Level" or somesuch. It's Irrefutable. Even if one, or even two or three, are due to bad translations, there are simply too many instances where it occurs to be ignored. Quote:
"They are VL, they are VL, and because no one can prove that they aren't means they are, They are VL they are VL, la lalalaaa..." is idiocy and naive. Quote:
Yes, Halibel was insinuated to be Vasto Lorde. But the entire montage was filler. They wanted to add more depth to her character, and took too many liberties. Why would Aizen be looking so fervently for Vasto Lorde, when a modified adjuchas (a stupid hammerhead one no less) could cream one? Quote:
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That is a fallacy: belief through non-proof of the reverse. |
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2010-12-20, 19:54 | Link #214 | ||
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2010-12-20, 21:03 | Link #215 | |||||||
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Except I can't. Quote:
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Are you really even trying to follow along? Quote:
*points to previous posts* Soifon directly states that her movements themselves are slowing down. She confirms it has nothing to do with spiritual pressure, and she mentions nothing of being tired. So she's only left to conclude that it's Barry's ability responsible for slowing her down. I'm not assuming a single thing. Quote:
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I resorted to doubting Kubo's words because of the inconsistencies they've presented in this particular case. Clearly most of the statements in the series don't warrant the same amount of speculation since they don't all lead to the same number of potential inconsistencies. If you're going to try to be witty, at least try not to sound dumb while your at it. Better yet, just stop doing so in general. Because it makes some of your statements very difficult to take seriously. In return, I apologize for any similar comments I made that came across that way. Last edited by sayde; 2010-12-21 at 07:49. |
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2010-12-21, 12:14 | Link #217 | |||
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First part of Hitsugaya's quote indicates that a VL's strength is greater than captain-class before they become arrancar. Arrancarization increases their strength by an unknown degree. And Hitsugaya was talking about the scenario that would present itself if it were 10 SS captains vs. Aizen, Gin and Tousen leading 10 VL. That's why I said you were misinterpreting Hitsugaya's words. Nothing he said about the estimated strength of the VL was contradicted. "Stronger than captain-class" does not mean "Stronger than Yamamoto" and the scenario where Hitsugaya had the strength of the VL overwhelming 10 captains never happened. Instead, it turned out to be at most 4 VL (including WW) against 6 captains + 6 vizard captains and lieutenants. And I guess we could nitpick about the Espada's actual combat ability all day (though my point about Barragan was that Soifon couldn't even follow his movement, something that had nothing to do with Barragan slowing her own movements becasue her mental perception wasn't affected). But anyway you look at it, the SS captains had extra aid from the vizards, whereas the Espada received no backup save WW. And even with the vizards, they still had a fight on their hands with the Espada. Fighting outnumbered against multiple captains and vizards (even if they didn't resort to bankai) and still holding your own, is nothing to sneeze at. Yeah, Kubo does contradict supposed strength-level of enemies (like Rukia's early statements about the Menos Grande). But looking at what Hitsugaya said, I don't see how anything that happened actually contradicts it. Besides failing to actually rack up the body count, the top Espada fought on par with the captains. So think of this as a closing argument. Quote:
More likely, Syzael was a lesser arrancar promoted into the ranks of Espada. In my opinion, 9 members of the Espada being VL has little basis except for those who want to make their defeat seem more disappointing to fit in with the idea that the VL were that much weaker than Kubo originally stated. We know Aizen was still searching for more vastro lorde to complete the Espada at the time the current members already in place. We also heard from Aaaronerio he's always kept as member of the Espada because his potential is virtually limitless so it's unlikely Aizen was searching for a replacement just for him. Also, there's obvious huge strength gap between no.4 and no.5 positions, evidenced by the law that #'s 4 and above not allowed to release under the dome. I think all these things pretty much point towards the idea that the Espada were a mix of VL and lesser arrancar.
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Last edited by Sabaku Kyu; 2010-12-21 at 12:44. |
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2010-12-21, 12:36 | Link #218 | |
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Fair enough. And don't bother providing a scan of the statements in question. I believe you. |
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2010-12-21, 12:54 | Link #219 | |
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2010-12-21, 22:44 | Link #220 | |||||||||
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So you'll pick and choose, then? Quote:
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And I suppose it's completely stupid to believe Aizen is anything but a VL? Just because someone's powerful doesn't automatically mean they're a VL. Hollow's have the same power potential as Shinigami. All you are doing by admitting that it's "all but said" is strengthening my point. You cannot prove the lack of a positive wrong, my friend. Doubt cannot lose an argument. xD Quote:
Are you following along at all? Quote:
le sigh. I was hoping you would extend the courtesy of informing a semi-new participant of previous conversation pieces. But I suppose that falls mostly on me anyways. If you insist. Quote:
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I was not the one to bring Soi Fon being tired into this, either as a fact or an assumption. I don't even remember WHO brought it up; I simply wasn't the one. Besides, I don't see how it affects this, so let's drop this point. Quote:
2.) It was an honest suggestion; not a witty remark. If you are going to try to be "holier than thou", at least try not to sound dumb while you're at it. I am making basic statements which are inevitable looking at your "picking and choosing of plot holes" and "belief based on non-proof of the reverse" fallacies. The only way my "witty" remark sounds dumb is because it is something you, by default, would have to accept based upon your argument. |
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