(L) C: The Money of Soul and Possibility Control (w/Kenji Nakamura)

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

how cheap looking it is.

Ah, this kind of comments always bring a smile to my face. Thanks to computers (CGI, digital painting, etc.) animation in general and anime in particular is way "prettier" than anything done a decade ago. Does it mean everything back then was junk not worth watching? Does interesting shows happen to be born this decade? No doubt in another decade the "new kids on the block" will see anything that is not 3D and at least 120 fps as cheap looking and unworthy of any decent storytelling.

[Reckoner]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Ah, this kind of comments always bring a smile to my face. Thanks to computers (CGI, digital painting, etc.) animation in general and anime in particular is way "prettier" than anything done a decade ago. Does it mean everything back then was junk not worth watching? Does interesting shows happen to be born this decade? No doubt in another decade the "new kids on the block" will see anything that is not 3D and at least 120 fps as cheap looking and unworthy of any decent storytelling.

And I'm not the one you should direct this at. I enjoyed the old gundams of the 80's just fine with their retro animation. However, the detail to animation and art in this does become distractingly bad.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Reckoner

However, the detail to animation and art in this does become distractingly bad.

If the animation fulfills its function as a storytelling device I see no distraction at all. Even if it is a way to deliver the animation in time, I feel the sudden jumps in some scenes is part of the charm of this series (since, I repeat, the story is quite clear to understand). Buy hey, I have see far "worst" than you have seen, seeing some old gundam (hich no doubt you were a fan beforehand) does not change the fact that your generation threshold for "cheap animation" is quite high from my perspective.

[Arabesque]

Note: I have yet to watch anything of this show past episode 4 yet.

@mangamuscle: I think your not getting what Reckoner and Kaioshin are saying.

See, I love this show. I love how it manages to be entertaining when it is composed out of so many different parts that by all rights shouldn't work but somehow it does. But as someone who has seen every noitaminA show, I can say with absolute certainty that this is the worst looking noitaminA show.

We can make a case for the editing (as had been highlighted by Tinyredleaf earlier in the thread with the changes in the Financial District affecting the Mortal World) but the actual quality of the show, to be perfectly blunt, is crap when compared to other noitaminA series. Not Gundam, but other shows of its brethren.

There are standards by which a noitaminA show looks like. Not every single one of them looked like a high quality movie, they at least didn't look like they were produced with Zero budget Now this could be the point and Nakamura might be trying to prove a point (you can make a quality show with crap animation) but I can empathize with people who find the cheap look (for it is cheap looking) distracting and at times counter-productive to the show.

I mean, even Gundam didn't end up looking bad because Tomino wanted it to look bad. There were problems with production which produced that result. Other shows from its era weren't all as bad as the Original Gundam in the quality of animation. Hell if thats the case, then other Gundam shows would also look as bad right? (they don't)

does not change the fact that your generation threshold for "cheap animation" is quite high from my perspective.

Why yes, that's because the standard for animation quality has changed. We now hold it at a higher level because techniques have improved for producing anime, and we want to at least see anime that have some sort of decent look to them.

Again I love C, but the show when compared to other anime, the quality is not good, and even embarrassing for this sort of show. Hell even compared to older anime. I have seen episodes from Legends of the Galactic Heroes better looking than this show.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Arabesque

But as someone who has seen every noitaminA show, I can say with absolute certainty that this is the worst looking noitaminA show ... but the actual quality of the show, to be perfectly blunt, is crap when compared to other noitaminA series.

Maybe other notamina shows are prettier, but I would not call crap if it is entertaining and thought-provoking.

(noitaminA shows) Not every single one of them looked like a high quality movie, they at least didn't look like they were produced with Zero budget

You have no idea what low quality looks like. Zero budget? I will buy that for a dollar :-p

empathize with people who find the cheap look (for it is cheap looking) distracting and at times counter-productive to the show.

Your comfort zone is simply to narrow, do not get out of the air conditioner too long or you will melt.

Other shows from its era weren't all as bad as the Original Gundam in the quality of animation.

Nope, they were quite worse, Gundam is a franchise and as such has access to the best animators money can buy. If I am wrong be so kind to point me to one anime from the 80s that looks better than said gundam but is neither a franchise nor an OVA.

Why yes, that's because the standard for animation quality has changed. We now hold it at a higher level because techniques have improved for producing anime, and we want to at least see anime that have some sort of decent look to them.

Since always cutting edge story telling and new ideas has been coupled with low budget, as simple as that.

I have seen episodes from Legends of the Galactic Heroes better looking than this show.

That was an OVA, it was supposed to look as neat as possible and as the longest OVA ever produced, there is little doubt they had good financing.

[Triple_R]

In fairness to Kaioshin and Arabesque, I would *not* recommend this show to people on the basis of the fights in it. As an "action anime" this anime is not very good, in large part due to visual and editing shortcomings (although the fighting system itself is mind-boggling to me).

As a "concept anime", though, it's very strong. Great premise, that's executed well as far as characterization, concept building, and dialogue is concerned, imo.

Still, it's a shame that the "Deals" do very little for me, as they are a large part of the show.

[sapphire-pyro]

@ About the "Cheap" Animation

I'm on mangamuscle's side on this one ^^;
So what if it's not the nicest looking noitama show? So what if even some of the older shows look better than it?
"poor" animation plus excellent story still does not equal to crap.
Besides, I've heard they had been affected by the earthquake. Natural calamities ruin a lot of plans.

Oh well, perhaps the animation doesn't bother me that much since I'm more of a "story>art" person anywayz. The only time I'd complain about horrible animation I guess if the series obviously had huge budget. However, [C] obviously doesn't so I don't think the animation should be a big deal ^^;

Oh well, opinions are opinions~

[Vexx]

Um, ya'll are setting up strawmen enemies to attack and misrepresenting what other posters are saying ... I don't think anyone said the entire series was "crap" only that it is sad the animation is not up to par with prior NoitaminA efforts and not possibly worthy of the art and storyline. This can be said regardless of the budget. What the animation problems tell me is that the concept was a tough enough sell to the money-men that they exercised possibly too much "risk mitigation" on that part of the project.

If the animation problems or model continuity are distracting someone from the story rather than enhancing it... then like *any* visual aid - its a problem. It will be interesting to see if the DVD releases correct it. My classic example is Tsukuyomi Moon Phase - where entire fight sequences were reduced to a still frame because an outsourcing completely f'd them up during the broadcast effort but then most of it was fixed for the DVD release.

[mangamuscle]

Originally Posted by Vexx

It will be interesting to see if the DVD releases correct it.

That bugs me quite a bit. In the "good ol'times" the deadline for delivery was broadcast day. Then someone though it would be nice to correct small errors for the brand new DVD release, which was dandy. But this has degenerated into a "hey, if you mess up, you can always do it right in the DVD release". What is worst, people EXPECT to see mistakes in a broadcast release and EXPECT to see improvements in the disc release. But what happens if the so called "errors" were intended? I mean, many people the first time they saw a manga thought "it would be better without the action lines" or after seeing Ranma 1/2 said "It would be ok without the crossdressing". If they were not errors at all, how different is expecting them to change them then from expecting msyu to have bigger boobs? What is next then "New Casablanca, in color, 3D and with a new crowd pleasing ending"?

[Horse]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

That bugs me quite a bit. In the "good ol'times" the deadline for delivery was broadcast day. Then someone though it would be nice to correct small errors for the brand new DVD release, which was dandy. But this has degenerated into a "hey, if you mess up, you can always do it right in the DVD release". What is worst, people EXPECT to see mistakes in a broadcast release and EXPECT to see improvements in the disc release. But what happens if the so called "errors" were intended? I mean, many people the first time they saw a manga thought "it would be better without the action lines" or after seeing Ranma 1/2 said "It would be ok without the crossdressing". If they were not errors at all, how different is expecting them to change them then from expecting msyu to have bigger boobs? What is next then "New Casablanca, in color, 3D and with a new crowd pleasing ending"?

The Cassablanca example in particular (cause it will come sooner or later).

Nobody "EXPECT"s to see mistakes in the broadcast. The producers may be shooting themselves in the foot by having poor broadcast versions, but in the end it's the product you can own that matters for the buyers. Or then you could have, I don't know... say Umineko DVDs which have ridiculous errors (characters getting cut off in the middle of the frame, transparent colors, etc) just like in the broadcast...

PS. Which times are you calling the "good ol'times" again?

[Kaioshin Sama]

Originally Posted by Solace

I'm not really disagreeing with you but everything about this show screams "tough sell" to me. I can't even begin to imagine how this show was pitched to the higher ups to get it financed in the first place. It's this odd shounen financial ethical mashup of concepts that somehow works out well enough, but probably won't be much more than a footnote in someones "I need a suggestion for a weird series" thread. What sort of market/person is this show meant to appeal to? That's difficult to say.

Personally while I find the shows financial theme very fascinating, the biggest reason I'm watching this is Msyu. Yup. I like monster chicks. Actually, I find most of the assets in the show pretty neat. It's a shame that they aren't really a focus in the story.

Yeah....like I'm not going to lie, the main reason I myself am still watching is to find out where Mikuni's character is going and to see what exactly is supposed to make Q so powerful....so yeah basically I'm watching for the story surrounding the main antagonist for the most part.

As for Q, the joking side of me envisions her being like Snorlax and just using Rest to keep an infinite charge of HP, while the side of me that has seriously thought about it envisions some sort of berserker mode to go with the firey rage we saw in the one episode where Mikuni did sort of fight......though that might cost to much to actually animate.

And yeah I think this show is going to be a textbook example of great idea terrible execution in the end on account of the obvious budget and animation issues as well as the short episode length.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

Ah, this kind of comments always bring a smile to my face. Thanks to computers (CGI, digital painting, etc.) animation in general and anime in particular is way "prettier" than anything done a decade ago. Does it mean everything back then was junk not worth watching? Does interesting shows happen to be born this decade? No doubt in another decade the "new kids on the block" will see anything that is not 3D and at least 120 fps as cheap looking and unworthy of any decent storytelling.

I could make several arguments against the idea that CGI and Digital Painting make for universally better animation. For example there's something to be said for the lack of depth in animation that can crop in some Digital Painted shows where the characters and the background they are on can look more like a single 2D layer than a 3D environment because of the way background composites are shot in some shows. Also I'd argue there's no substitute for the backgrounds that were being drawn in the early to mid 90's that can't really be duplicated without using hand drawn techniques. The only thing I've seen lately that even comes close is the movie Colorful.

What has been fixed are the general mistakes I would see a lot in older anime where they would fill in the wrong colour for somebody's character design (usually hair) and it would be really obvious to almost anyone watching. I've been watching a show called Orguss where that exact animation flub actually popped up in the most recent episode.

What I will agree with is that modern CGI and Digital Painting techniques definitely look better than the primitive CGI and Digital Painting softwares that were being employed at the turn of the century. For example I'd actually argue that Gundam Seed looks significantly worse now than Turn A Gundam which came out 3 years before it in 1999 and was one of the last TV Series to be hand drawn. In fact going back and watching anything from about 2000-2005 reveals shows whose animation hasn't aged well at all in my opinion and even shows that came out as recently as 2008 are starting to look dated. CGI and Digital Paint I'd argue are just now starting to grow out of their infant stages and realizing their full potential.

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

If the animation fulfills its function as a storytelling device I see no distraction at all. Even if it is a way to deliver the animation in time, I feel the sudden jumps in some scenes is part of the charm of this series (since, I repeat, the story is quite clear to understand). Buy hey, I have see far "worst" than you have seen, seeing some old gundam (hich no doubt you were a fan beforehand) does not change the fact that your generation threshold for "cheap animation" is quite high from my perspective.

It hasn't though because the editing is so atrocious in this show that many episodes I have little idea what is going on, especially when they are throwing me into the middle of scenes with no context as to what is going on or throwing me out of scenes with little context as to how they were resolved and what got the characters into the current scene. Frankly the way the most recent episode was laid out and flowed was a joke and it felt like I was watching an advanced storyboard of episode 06 as opposed to the actual episode 06 at times. You are free to find charm in the way it was executed, but I expect a lot better out of an 11 episode series in terms of story focus.

Oh and just for the record, I use Gundam as an example in discussing animation solely because of my familiarity with the franchise and how it's been a part of just about every era of Japanese Animation from the crude art and animation of the 70's through to the oft crisp animation of the current digital era. I hope there's no confusion and that people don't think I'm actually trying to compare C to the Gundam franchise directly.

The animation isn't my major issue with this show though in case that hasn't become clearer. It's the choppy editing. I can honestly tolerate cheap stiff looking animation just fine and the odd off model shot just find (and god knows this show has a lot of that), it's the way it's put together from scene to scene and shot to shot that is becoming the hugely distracting part.

[citrinitas668]

Originally Posted by mangamuscle

That bugs me quite a bit. In the "good ol'times" the deadline for delivery was broadcast day. Then someone though it would be nice to correct small errors for the brand new DVD release, which was dandy. But this has degenerated into a "hey, if you mess up, you can always do it right in the DVD release".

What "good ol'times"? I have two words for you: Lost Universe.

[abscissa]

I think it's fairly unanimous to everyone that the art kind of looks cheap. However, I find the use of money and possibility really fascinating themes. I think episode six is really interesting and thought provoking. Did anyone notice that Sennoza's ideology of the future works like Eternalism and Mizuki's as Presentism? And, if we are going to base which one is more logical or sided by most of the big names in Philosophy e.g. Einstein, Eternalism is more favourable. Which kind of make sense because it seems like Kimimaro is going to Deal with Mizuki as the OP shows.

[sapphire-pyro]

First, I'd like to clarify that I'm not hunting for enemies or something as stupid >_< Just stating opinions, not insisting to be right.

Secondly, if the animation degrades the quality of the series, by "quality" I assumed that it's also referring to the series overall. Looks like it was a wrong assumption then. My bad.

Ah well, perhaps unlike some, I just don't find poor animation that bothersome or distracting.

What bothered me was when some people dropped the series after an episode or two just because they can't stand the animation... when it's actually this promising ;_; Waaaah! So seeing comments on how bad the animation is reminded me of that ^^;

Oh, I liked the editing/directing style, the cuts/shifts/skips/chops seem intentional and they work, to me. They didn't feel lacking at all, either. I also love how unexpected and surprising they are; it's so unusual... it's like it doesn't follow standard storytelling format. Hehe.

[orion]

I just think that the animation looks different from the norm. Since I'm in it for the story mostly and classified the animation in my brain as "experimental", I have no problems with the title.

[serenade_beta]

Spoiler for ep7:

If Mash is Kimimaro's future... Symbolizes wife? Daughter?

Assuming that means with Hanabi...
Because he lost a while ago, she became closer with her current boyfriend (the scene where he asked her if something happened and she talked about the clothes she recently got) and the chances of Kimimaro getting with her decreases, thus his future was affected!
Maybe~

Originally Posted by abscissa

I think it's fairly unanimous to everyone that the art kind of looks cheap.

Not really. I don't like the 3D, but I haven't had a problem with the art. As long as it doesn't collapse (like say, Madoka's pancakes or Hidan no Aria in general), rather then cheap, it just feels different.

[DarkLordOfkichiku]

Originally Posted by serenade_beta

Spoiler for ep7:

If Mash is Kimimaro's future... Symbolizes wife? Daughter?

Assuming that means with Hanabi...
Because he lost a while ago, she became closer with her current boyfriend (the scene where he asked her if something happened and she talked about the clothes she recently got) and the chances of Kimimaro getting with her decreases, thus his future was affected!
Maybe~

Spoiler for :

Well, that's a theory that has been brought up before, but I'm not sure that's what losses affect - as I've said before, my theory so far is that loses only affect what you've invested Midas Money in, but that's not entirely proven yet.

Plus, if your life "takes a dive" when you lose, then what about when you win? So far we haven't exactly seen any direct improvement of Kimimaro's life as a cause of him winning, after all. But maybe that's the whole "devil's deal" about the District - you win a match and you gain a lot of money, but on the flip side, when you lose a match, you lose something that is important, perhaps even irreplaceable to you...

Msyu may well represent Hanabi or an as of yet unborn daughter though... Just like Q may symbolize Mikuni's (now dead?) little sister. Heck, maybe all three of Mikuni's asset may represent his whole family, sorta.

[orion]

Originally Posted by DarkLordOfkichiku

Spoiler for :

Well, that's a theory that has been brought up before, but I'm not sure that's what losses affect - as I've said before, my theory so far is that loses only affect what you've invested Midas Money in, but that's not entirely proven yet.

Plus, if your life "takes a dive" when you lose, then what about when you win? So far we haven't exactly seen any direct improvement of Kimimaro's life as a cause of him winning, after all. But maybe that's the whole "devil's deal" about the District - you win a match and you gain a lot of money, but on the flip side, when you lose a match, you lose something that is important, perhaps even irreplaceable to you...

Msyu may well represent Hanabi or an as of yet unborn daughter though... Just like Q may symbolize Mikuni's (now dead?) little sister. Heck, maybe all three of Mikuni's asset may represent his whole family, sorta.

Spoiler for just a reply...:

Plus, you can always marry someone else or adopt children. So a 'future with someone" is in flux. It doesn't have to be with Hanabi.

[msg]

To be honest, i'm a bit disappointed with the series so far.There's some part it looks rush..it seems to be focusing more about each character's idealogies...and i'm having a hard time liking the MC.he's so fickle minded

[Dann of Thursday]

Spoiler for Mysu:

Maybe she's some sort of representation of some girl he'd meet in the future?Daughter may fit more though I suppose since she'd be representing something that does not yet exist.