Log Horizon: Elder Tale World Theories and Speculation [Absolutely NO SPOILER]

[LKK]

Originally Posted by Keroko

So all the world theory and speculation that contains information from the novel would have to take place in the novel thread?

Yes.

That seems... somewhat counterproductive. Wasn't one of the reasons we created a separate thread for this topic to prevent clogging up the other threads?

Not entirely. This No Spoilers thread allows anime-only viewers who don't want to be spoiled by venturing into the novel thread to discuss possible theories as well. Novel & manga readers who are willingly to contribute discussion without spoilers are also welcome. To put it another way, use what's been shown in the anime to support your theories when posting in this thread.

[WhiteJoker]

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

So basically you are saying that there are not enough information to make a concrete assumption?

Yes and no. There's enough information to make a variety of assumptions but unlike what Tenzen is saying, these assumptions either only strengthen a particular theory rather than exclude another or are a difference in perspective.

To address that point here since I'm being lazy about quoting at the moment, the exclusions being used are based on assumptions which are not strongly conclusive; taking the real world computer thing, yes, that's entirely possible and making that assumption is reasonable. It's also reasonable for a fan of science fiction to look at that and say "the basic desktop computer is not indicative that their technology level is limited to that or that offstage an unforeseen event/mad science occurred." Similarly the "magic is real in that world so magic could have done something to the original world" is an argument which serves to add points to the alternate reality theory but it does not subtract points from the virtual reality theory.

To put it another way, a strong argument for one theory does not disprove another; you disprove a theory by disproving it. You can stack a bunch of points and make one argument stronger and legitimately say "this is more likely because of it" but that doesn't exclude or disprove the other. In essence, if your response boils down to "that isn't believable to me" then that's fine, that's your view and entirely legitimate, but it's also the same for the view which you're rejecting; only when your argument is "that's not possible because of X" then are you disproving what is said and invalidating the theory. Throwing around "reasonable" as an objective qualifier is, ironically, unreasonable because what is reasonable is informed by one's experiences and expectations. Mistaking likely and unlikely for possible and impossible is similar.

That is only right if you base what you know on the limited amount of information from the anime.

You'll note that I'm not responding by quoting or referencing Log Horizon much because what I'm arguing at is what is argued. To boil it down, when the "magic works in that world so it can explain x" point came up I didn't disprove magic or that thought, I pointed out that it has trouble explaining x where as the other theory doesn't. If the reasoning is "this theory is possible because it can explain this issue" then the opposite of "that theory is possible because it can explain that issue" is equally true. If the reasoning is "There's no evidence," I went with "lack of evidence is not evidence of lacking." And when it went to "this idea is ridiculous" I went with "this idea is a trope in this genre." The entire point being that those arguments were based on "this point makes that point impossible" and my point wasn't that your point was wrong or that, on the whole, it probably is more likely but the that your point does not actually make that impossible or wrong.

I believe the only time I referenced the source work is whenever people brought up "Shiroe/some character said they're in an alternate world so that's what it is" and I responded by pointing out the context of those scenes. I did so because, hey, they referenced something! I'll do it too.

I have outright ignored replies that were basically "the novel says otherwise but that's a spoiler" because, well, this thread doesn't allow spoilers so addressing that comment is rather pointless on both sides.

[orion]

Originally Posted by Lazgrane

So basically you are saying that there are not enough information to make a concrete assumption?

That is only right if you base what you know on the limited amount of information from the anime.

So again I'm saying

I second this suggestion. You really need to add in the spoilers from the novel and manga to have a productive World Theories and Speculation thread.

[Keroko]

World Fractions! World Fractions everywhere!

So yeah, today's episode gave a massive boost to the "summoned to a parallel world" theory, with the MMO-style combat explained, as well as telling us that adventurers being summoned actually was a humongous spell cast on this end.

[Netto Azure]

This is most certainly a very engaging episode of Log Horizon. Coming on the heels of the Raynesia and Krusty interactions, now we get the much anticipated exposition of the world they are in. It appears that they are not stuck in a VRMMO or some experiment using plausible futuristic technology but instead is actually transported into a brand new world.

The fact that each time they die, they lose part of their memory (ALA Valvrave) means they cannot count on being immortal in a quality of life sense. Tying experience loss to literal loss of experience (aka Memories) is quite a twist, and brings up some interesting questions. Also the meaning behind their souls being reborn and the body being remade in the cathedral is literally per-se what happens in standard MMO’s.
Still this does bring up a question. If this is a parallel world, does that mean they were transported to a future of the parallel world? Because the basis of this world is our world itself. Still as has been pointed out the game has been going on for so long (As in-game time = faster in the Elder Tales World) Shiroe himself was considered a mage of great wisdom due to the Landers believing his game time.

Also of course the back story of the 6 Bent Princesses, the 3 World Fractions being Global-level magic that was brought as a reaction to the world. Very great world building.

[Tenzen12]

Honestly this episode doesn't prove nothig. VN worshipers will claim it just to be cover-story created by conspirators that kidnapped everyone and put them into metrix...

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

Still this does bring up a question. If this is a parallel world, does that mean they were transported to a future of the parallel world? Because the basis of this world is our world itself.

Parallel worlds often have as many similarities as they have differences. "Similar, but not the same" would be the best way to describe them.

[hamazura]

i think this is really inside a game, not a parallel, alternate, or whatever world

>developer created the basic design of elder tale world with NPC a.k.a peace world in elder tale
>they created the setting of the world a.k.a wars between other races with alvs
>they patch the game with monster a.k.a first world fraction. 6 princesses were a GM :P
>the game still on developed before released a.k.a war between human and monster
>they release the online game to public, and players come a.k.a second world fraction
and then
>super natural magic gantz machine tech something happen and absorb all player (or memories) into player character :P a.k.a apocalypse

how's that?

[Tenzen12]

Basicaly I don't have problem with that, but there is some holes.s
>First fraction caused born of Demihumans, witch means inteligent enemies, variou slimes and beasts monsters no metter how high level these has are completely different metter. These also while being integrated in games doesn't reincarnate in same fashion as demihumans.
>6 scrapped princess (Or Bend whatever) are also just part of settings, they was never involved in game itself, thus it doesn't have anything to do with Gamemasters. Same goes for war itself.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Parallel worlds often have as many similarities as they have differences. "Similar, but not the same" would be the best way to describe them.

True parallel worlds would be similar but on the other hand if this some sort of VR with NCP that seem to be at sentient then the in game lore being grossly expanded wouldn't be that unusual either.
Of course that's also the problem with both theories they don't really preclude each other in general when it comes to evidence since we're either talking about extremely advance VR world with rather limited restrictions or parallel world that somewhat mirrors an MMO.

[Keroko]

Originally Posted by hamazura

i think this is really inside a game, not a parallel, alternate, or whatever world

>developer created the basic design of elder tale world with NPC a.k.a peace world in elder tale
>they created the setting of the world a.k.a wars between other races with alvs
>they patch the game with monster a.k.a first world fraction. 6 princesses were a GM :P
>the game still on developed before released a.k.a war between human and monster
>they release the online game to public, and players come a.k.a second world fraction
and then
>super natural magic gantz machine tech something happen and absorb all player (or memories) into player character :P a.k.a apocalypse

how's that?

Plausible, but a few holes. Why is the war with the alvs an actual event in history? When programming a game, background story is never a real thing happening at that time. You also don't just patch in monsters after leaving NPC's to cook for a year or so. Both NPC's and mobs are generally programmed at the same time. The basic designs also means there is no actual game world yet, so the era of peace couldn't exist.

Also, still no sign of supernatural magic gantz machine tech.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by Netto Azure

The fact that each time they die, they lose part of their memory (ALA Valvrave) means they cannot count on being immortal in a quality of life sense. Tying experience loss to literal loss of experience (aka Memories) is quite a twist, and brings up some interesting questions.

That comment made me think of something. What if the amount of memory you lose is dependent on your level. What I mean is, Shiroe said people did not make a big deal of dying, could it be implied that those people that died were low level?

Let's say a level 20 person dies, he or she was level 19 just a few hours ago (since I assume it doesn't take long to get to the next level at such a low level). Once a person reaches the next level, the memories are locked. But, when this level 20 person dies during their leveling, everything he or she learned from level 20 onward gets erased. Let's just say this is true, doesn't that mean the high levels, especially the level 90's are at the greatest risk here?

[hamazura]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

That comment made me think of something. What if the amount of memory you lose is dependent on your level. What I mean is, Shiroe said people did not make a big deal of dying, could it be implied that those people that died were low level?

Let's say a level 20 person dies, he or she was level 19 just a few hours ago (since I assume it doesn't take long to get to the next level at such a low level). Once a person reaches the next level, the memories are locked. But, when this level 20 person dies during their leveling, everything he or she learned from level 20 onward gets erased. Let's just say this is true, doesn't that mean the high levels, especially the level 90's are at the greatest risk here?

im rly confused with your statement, with memories locked something.
whatever, talking about risk,
every online gamers must know that a higher level player got bigger penalty when they die.
20% experience of lvl20 and lvl90 is rly different.

[Sheba]

Originally Posted by Snuffle

That comment made me think of something. What if the amount of memory you lose is dependent on your level. What I mean is, Shiroe said people did not make a big deal of dying, could it be implied that those people that died were low level?

Let's say a level 20 person dies, he or she was level 19 just a few hours ago (since I assume it doesn't take long to get to the next level at such a low level). Once a person reaches the next level, the memories are locked. But, when this level 20 person dies during their leveling, everything he or she learned from level 20 onward gets erased. Let's just say this is true, doesn't that mean the high levels, especially the level 90's are at the greatest risk here?

A theory is that it starts with something very unsignificant, such as your own phone number or the eye color of the bf/gf you left behind. Die enough time and you will eventually forget more important memories such as how do your parents look like, or even your own living place.

[GundamFan]

Originally Posted by Keroko

Plausible, but a few holes. Why is the war with the alvs an actual event in history? When programming a game, background story is never a real thing happening at that time. You also don't just patch in monsters after leaving NPC's to cook for a year or so.

I don't see any holes all at if the Landers are actually sentient AI in some VR world it would make sense that some sort of world history would be written and a version of it would have been included in the AI memory program probably would even vary based on things race,social status, and role.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by hamazura

i think this is really inside a game, not a parallel, alternate, or whatever world

>developer created the basic design of elder tale world with NPC a.k.a peace world in elder tale
>they created the setting of the world a.k.a wars between other races with alvs
>they patch the game with monster a.k.a first world fraction. 6 princesses were a GM :P
>the game still on developed before released a.k.a war between human and monster
>they release the online game to public, and players come a.k.a second world fraction
and then
>super natural magic gantz machine tech something happen and absorb all player (or memories) into player character :P a.k.a apocalypse

how's that?

I haven't watched the episode yet but did they not have Shiroe mention that he'd never heard anything about this history before? The stuff with the Alv princesses and the Alv race being destroyed by the other races and the world ritual magic and stuff being cast was never part of the game lore. Shiroe was very surprised to hear it in the light novel.

Also if you convert earth years to ET years the game would have had to be in the development phase before beta when adventurers entered for 9 years. That's quite a bit too long for any kind of reasonable game development. Process is usually 4 to 5 years or so max.

[Snuffle]

Originally Posted by hamazura

im rly confused with your statement, with memories locked something.
whatever, talking about risk,
every online gamers must know that a higher level player got bigger penalty when they die.
20% experience of lvl20 and lvl90 is rly different.

That's exactly the point I was trying to make (although clumsily). The level cap is no longer 90 as mentioned in one of the earlier episodes, therefore, a lvl 90 can gain exp. Loosing all that exp is a much bigger deal than a lvl 20.

When I was talking about the memories locked thing, I was linking that to exp gained during your level with your memories. No matter what level you are, you are not going to go lower than your current level if you die. The amount of time spent leveling at a low level is not a big deal, since time spent leveling + exp lost = not much memories erased. But, to a level 90, it's a huge deal... I doubt I'm explaining it properly... It's just a theroy.

[Chaos2Frozen]

Originally Posted by Xacual

I haven't watched the episode yet but did they not have Shiroe mention that he'd never heard anything about this history before? The stuff with the Alv princesses and the Alv race being destroyed by the other races and the world ritual magic and stuff being cast was never part of the game lore. Shiroe was very surprised to hear it in the light novel.

Also if you convert earth years to ET years the game would have had to be in the development phase before beta when adventurers entered for 9 years. That's quite a bit too long for any kind of reasonable game development. Process is usually 4 to 5 years or so max.

Maybe Japan got it late? Wouldn't be the first time they were late to the party *coughps4cough*

They'll have to localize it not only for language and classes, but since each servers have it's own unique terrain they'll have to model everything from scratch, and might even have to create whole new quests.... And that means more Beta.

[Xacual]

Originally Posted by Chaos2Frozen

Maybe Japan got it late? Wouldn't be the first time they were late to the party *coughps4cough*

They'll have to localize it not only for language and classes, but since each servers have it's own unique terrain they'll have to model everything from scratch, and might even have to create whole new quests.... And that means more Beta.

That goes against what we know of the game. We know that's it's a 20 year old game. The timing would mean the development would have started 29 years ago which would be around 1989 our years. No one was developing or even thinking about developing MMO type games that far back.

[erneiz_hyde]

Originally Posted by orion

I second this suggestion. You really need to add in the spoilers from the novel and manga to have a productive World Theories and Speculation thread.

No. If you add in future spoilers, at that point, it ceases to be "speculation". The thrill of speculation is in NOT knowing whether you or anyone else is right.
You can have everyone being wrong about all the theories but it can still be a productive speculation thread.