(L) Junketsu no Maria (Maria the Virgin Witch)

[Enternal]

Originally Posted by Esclair

Humans have done a pretty good job of creating unspeakable atrocities even without magical powers. Adding magical powers to the mix really doesn't somehow make things worse. Many technologies we have invented over the years fall into that same category of 'absolute power' if abused.

Imagine if the only weapon ever existed are spoons. People can still commit atrocities even with something simple as spooning.

But yeah, I have to agree with Esclair on this one. I still hear problems where people try to help other people who are not necessary close to them and the problems/consequences comes back to bite them in the rear of their close ones. It's not something you can really avoid. Somebody is going to get hurt either way so would it be some stranger or would you prefer it to be those you are close to. It's a tough question and choice really.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Esclair

So towns should open their gates to pillagers and criminals because if they defend themselves the pillagers will just move onto another village instead? What if she was an inventor instead and armed the villagers with crossbows to make the village an unappealing target? That would also be considered pushing the problem down someone else's back yard? If you remove the notion that using magic is inherently bad then there's nothing wrong with her actions. Now, whether her magic has some kind of hidden cost to it is another matter altogether.

Those of course, are hypothetical what ifs - in place, we get magic. And of course, with Crossbows, those bandits would have died or move on to some other poor settlement. Note: the Archangel doesn't have a problem with the Villagers... choosing to solve the problem in a permanent manner. So, yes, it seems the central issue is that there's some problem with using too much magic, that we aren't aware of, and it goes far beyond some need to monopolize the Supernatural.

On the other hand, Michael was taking Maria's logic of peace to it's logical extreme, by explaining that by creating some sort of local peace, she screws someone else down the line. From Maria's local view, that's fine and morally justified - you protect what is important to you, not everything, from Michael's broader view, that's a problem.

I'm thinking that might be the case, but so far the story hasn't revealed anything that'd suggest that. Michael comes down and tells her to stop and the only reasoning is that they don't want her interfering with the natural order of humans killing each other.

More accurately, I think the point is that Maria can't change that order , and she's just going to be very disillusioned at the end of it all.

Humans have done a pretty good job of creating unspeakable atrocities even without magical powers. Adding magical powers to the mix really doesn't somehow make things worse. Many technologies we have invented over the years fall into that same category of 'absolute power' if abused.

However, Magical Powers seem to be only inherently usable by a small minority. Anyone could pick up a crossbow, or a gun and use it against a tyrant or a bandit, etc... But you either have the ability to use magic or you don't.

[Top Sergeant]

When Artemis kicked the incubus back into the room and said "Get back to work!" I bust a gut laughing! The expression on her face was perfect!

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by novalysis

Those of course, are hypothetical what ifs - in place, we get magic. And of course, with Crossbows, those bandits would have died or move on to some other poor settlement. Note: the Archangel doesn't have a problem with the Villagers... choosing to solve the problem in a permanent manner. So, yes, it seems the central issue is that there's some problem with using too much magic, that we aren't aware of, and it goes far beyond some need to monopolize the Supernatural.

Unless Maria knows her use of magic actually creates negative karma or something, she'd still be in the right.

On the other hand, Michael was taking Maria's logic of peace to it's logical extreme, by explaining that by creating some sort of local peace, she screws someone else down the line. From Maria's local view, that's fine and morally justified - you protect what is important to you, not everything, from Michael's broader view, that's a problem.

Michael can have that view, but that doesn't make it any more justified than Maria's. He just has bigger guns to enforce it.

More accurately, I think the point is that Maria can't change that order , and she's just going to be very disillusioned at the end of it all.

Being disillusioned or not is up to Maria. Frankly I'd say Angels are pretty close to falling into disillusionment in general and really shouldn't be giving advice on these subjects.

However, Magical Powers seem to be only inherently usable by a small minority. Anyone could pick up a crossbow, or a gun and use it against a tyrant or a bandit, etc... But you either have the ability to use magic or you don't.

We don't really have anything in real life to compare it to. The closest we get are maybe pro-athletes with inherent genetic traits that are favorable for certain sports. I don't see how we can really say having some people being able to use magic would increase the amount of brutality.

[Master_Yoma]

Things really hit the fan and Maria just so cute after seem man junk

[HandofFate]

Originally Posted by Esclair

So towns should open their gates to pillagers and criminals because if they defend themselves the pillagers will just move onto another village instead? What if she was an inventor instead and armed the villagers with crossbows to make the village an unappealing target? That would also be considered pushing the problem down someone else's back yard? If you remove the notion that using magic is inherently bad then there's nothing wrong with her actions. Now, whether her magic has some kind of hidden cost to it is another matter altogether.

Humans have done a pretty good job of creating unspeakable atrocities even without magical powers. Adding magical powers to the mix really doesn't somehow make things worse. Many technologies we have invented over the years fall into that same category of 'absolute power' if abused.

the freedom granted by god includes the freedom to sin.
Humans can do whatever they want, the problem the heavens are saying they have is a superpower like Maria interfering.

the closest modern example I can think of right now is two groups in Africa or the middle east having wars with eachother. And then the US comes in and interferes, taking other interests out. Morally it looks good on paper, but now you have the rest of the world criticizing the US acting like a world police.

Right now, the warring countries are like representing two sovereign entities fighting eachother. And Maria is like the Star Trek Enterprise coming in and beaming everyone to stop them from fighting.

[novalysis]

Originally Posted by Esclair

We don't really have anything in real life to compare it to. The closest we get are maybe pro-athletes with inherent genetic traits that are favorable for certain sports. I don't see how we can really say having some people being able to use magic would increase the amount of brutality.

No, not brutality, but rather, the ease of abuse and the greater difficulty of replying.

[Esclair]

Originally Posted by HandofFate

the freedom granted by god includes the freedom to sin.
Humans can do whatever they want, the problem the heavens are saying they have is a superpower like Maria interfering.

the closest modern example I can think of right now is two groups in Africa or the middle east having wars with eachother. And then the US comes in and interferes, taking other interests out. Morally it looks good on paper, but now you have the rest of the world criticizing the US acting like a world police.

Right now, the warring countries are like representing two sovereign entities fighting eachother. And Maria is like the Star Trek Enterprise coming in and beaming everyone to stop them from fighting.

Well, if the US didn't actually end up bombing a ton of civilians as collateral damage, or topple governments just to install despots, or profit off the sales of weapons for the wars, most of the rest of the world probably wouldn't mind the US stepping in to stop the wars.

And I always thought the Prime Directive was bullshit

Anyways, Michael's perspective is not wrong per se, but like I said earlier, he could only enforce it because he has the bigger guns. It's not inherently any more 'just' than Maria's perspective given what he's said so far and what the anime has revealed.

Originally Posted by novalysis

No, not brutality, but rather, the ease of abuse and the greater difficulty of replying.

There really isn't any empirical data to support that notion. The closest real life equivalent I can think of is being born into extreme wealth and privilege ie, Kings and Emperors, but even then it's not any more prone to abuse than most other aspects of power people come across. The people who did abuse their power often held onto it for their entire lives.

[Somnus]

Finally got around to watching the first two episodes. I...actually love this show.

It does a lot of things really, really well. Not to mention touches on various things in an interesting, and yet, strangely realistic manner (if you remove the magic the issues at hand are as real as they get). I can understand why discussions are started to drum up here.

Also, kudos to the show for portraying wars/battles like this (again, pre-magic). The slow, dirty dances of death that they are. And while the Archangel speaks with validity to his claims, on a personal level it's hard to just sit and accept it and say "there's no way to fix it, it's just how the world works". Especially if magic plays an active role in that world...it's not as if those witches and familiars are entirely behind the scenes.

[Mister Twit]

So not just Catholicism, but Greek and Norse mythology enter the mix as well? The more the merrier, I guess. Why limit ourselves to just France and England.

Also snowy owls are just adorable things. Though it's odd that even the succubus looks look like a male owl. I guess for design simplicity.

[shmaster]

I am totally with Michael on the claim he makes in this episode.

If we assume the situation where the Heaven stops what they are doing, aka, allows the witches to tell humans what to do, that will just open another terrible can of worms.

Because now the witches can tell human what to do with no repercussion what so ever, and if this happens, how can the humans be free?
Don't even try to come up with the argument of allowing the good witches and only damn the bad one. Because who is there to drew the boundary line between the two?

The only way to do it is to have all supernaturals equal stay out of human affair. Let the humans bare their own karma and be responsible for their action, not to be judged by the opinion of some higher power.

[kache]

Surprisingly good series. Will keep watching.

[Tenzen12]

Putting other reasoning aside, Michael has as much right to stop Maria as she to interfere with humans...

[Dahak86]

NSFW

More Maria is always good

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Originally Posted by Mister Twit

So not just Catholicism, but Greek and Norse mythology enter the mix as well?

I wonder what's next, a Devi?

[cupumanager]

Originally Posted by Mister Twit

So not just Catholicism, but Greek and Norse mythology enter the mix as well?

Those Valkyries would be hard-pressed to find a Norman somewhere in 15th France still crying Odin and whispers about Valhalla at battles...Well, Michael shoo them away.

...and Taranis, The Celtic God of Thunder is a mere Summonable of a Witch?

But if humans knows about divine beings, do that means they did, and do intervene all the time to make themselves known among humans?

[zztop]

An incubus without a d**k is like a pizza without cheese.
Artemis's right; Maria at least needs to know what male biology looks like.

[Kopi]

The show was looking really average till Joseph took a shot at Michael.

[creb]

This appears to be one of this season's potentially underrated and hidden shows, in a vein similar to Bahamut from last season.

While I doubt the show will take the discussion between the angel and Maria to its logical conclusion, it still speaks to how this show appears to possibly be more tweeny witches than strike witches.

[FateAnomaly]

My question will be "Are witches human?"
If yes then micheal has no justication. Maria has the same right as the other humans to wield her power without divine intervention.
If no then micheal action is justifiable as eradication of demons.

Now the problem is micheal do not really need to justify his actions if he is doing heaven's will as they are probably the most powerful organization in the setting.

[Benigmatica]

Originally Posted by Master_Yoma

Things really hit the fan and Maria just so cute after seem man junk

Totally agree! I guess Maria will have to add a penis to poor shota incubus Priapos!