F/SN UBW TV - Episode 14 Spoiler Discussion / Poll

[Rising Dragon]

He died because he was a villain and the story called for him to be vanquished, lest you suffered a Bad End.

That said, Gilgamesh, being canonically the strongest Servant, is supposed to be OP--IIRC his armor was able to tank an Excaliblast in the VN, as opposed to the Ea/Excalibur beam war from the anime, or something to that effect. In a direct confrontation, I don't think Caster had a hope of surviving against the Gate of Babylon. That said, Caster's not really the type to fight directly unless she has an overwhelming advantage. If she had Archer on her side when confronting Gilgamesh, chances are she would've won, since Shirou/EMIYA's abilities are tailor-made to countering Gilgamesh as it is, and if you add her other advantages (Assassin if available, Kuzuki, her Territory, etc), she'd have a pretty good advantage over the resident gamebreaker.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I mean, seriously...do you think Gil could beat ORT too? Because it sounds like that is the kind of power you are trying to give him.

Gilgamesh probably has the best chance of taking out ORT, aside from, I dunno, Zelretch. I can see him possibly winning if he used Ea at full power right away, but I don't think anyone really knows what the full capabilities of ORT are, besides his terraforming ability and Word of God saying that Type-Mercury is the most powerful entity in the franchise at current.

[Dengar]

Shirou and Archer's abilities are a very specific counter to Gate of Babylon. And even WITH that, there is only one reason Shirou won: Gilgamesh was too proud to get serious, and by the time he actually bothered to pull out Ea it was too late.

He lost to Saber because she just HAPPENED to have the ONE thing in the world that's more OP than Ea.

Now you might argue that Caster would stand a chance if she exploited Gilgamesh's pride, but it doesn't quite work out that way. Perhaps there is some verrrry specific situation in which she could have won. But that's even more of a longshot than Shirou winning because his ability just happened to be super effective/Gilgamesh considered Shirou to be so far beneath him that he never bothered to get serious. I guess if she had Archer on her side, she could do it.

I'm not underestimating Caster. Trust me. But the fact that she is physically weak is a fact that remains horribly exploitable in any confrontation involving ranged attacks (which is Gilgamesh's specialty, one of several good reasons he's classed as Archer).

[JustThisOne]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

You treat Gil like he is some sort of god, but if he is so strong, why did he die in every route? If his stats are so good, why could Shirou not only keep up with him, but drive him into a corner? If he has so much awesome shit in GoB, why didn't it save him from the Grail in UBW? Sakura in HF? The chaff from a fighter jet in Zero?

You do realize that Shirou gains the physical stats (strength, speed, and skill, pretty much everything except durability) of the original wielder every time he traces a weapon. It was how Shirou was able to kill Beserker in Heaven's Feel because Shirou was able to gain Beserker's strength and skill.

Also, the Grail is a super counter to servants that can break down their body. In UBW, Gil could have got out of the Grail if Archer had not shot him in the head. Sakura caught Gil by surprise and decomposed him quickly. In Zero, did it look like Gil was even remotely damaged in the dogfight with Zero Beserker.

[TwilightsCall]

Gilgamesh probably has the best chance of taking out ORT, aside from, I dunno, Zelretch. I can see him possibly winning if he used Ea at full power right away, but I don't think anyone really knows what the full capabilities of ORT are, besides his terraforming ability and Word of God saying that Type-Mercury is the most powerful entity in the franchise at current.

I wouldn't really say its a victory in that case, as I imagine a full-powered Ea blast would kill Gilgamesh simultaneously, but I suppose the point is still valid. Though ORT has demonstrated he is capable of space travel, so there is the possibility of him just squeaking off into space after Gil blows up the Earth lol.

I was also going to mention that Void!Shiki would probably be able to defeat ORT a lot easier than Gil or Zelretch, but I suppose invoking Void!Shiki is about as silly as bringing up ORT in the first place...

Now you might argue that Caster would stand a chance if she exploited Gilgamesh's pride, but it doesn't quite work out that way.

I don't see why not...?

I'm not underestimating Caster. Trust me. But the fact that she is physically weak is a fact that remains horribly exploitable in any confrontation involving ranged attacks (which is Gilgamesh's specialty, one of several good reasons he's classed as Archer).

See, I feel like this statement perfectly demonstrates that you are underestimating her. Of course she'd lose in a confrontation involving ranged attacks, she'd lose in any confrontation period. But she also doesn't have to confront Gil face to face to kill him. Magic is cool like that.

You do realize that Shirou gains the physical stats (strength, speed, and skill, pretty much everything except durability) of the original wielder every time he traces a weapon.

I see no evidence to assume that he gains any stats at all from tracing. It was mentioned he replicates their skill, but not their abilities. Of course, I'm not combing through the VN again, so if you can point to where it says that then by all means, I will stand corrected.

Also, the Grail is a super counter to servants that can break down their body. In UBW, Gil could have got out of the Grail if Archer had not shot him in the head. Sakura caught Gil by surprise and decomposed him quickly. In Zero, did it look like Gil was even remotely damaged in the dogfight with Zero Beserker.

Firstly, the bold expresses my point exactly. In a similar vein, it would be pretty difficult to pull toys out of GoB if Caster dropped a bucket of magma on his head, for instance.

Secondly, the point is not that he took damage from the chaff (which technically he did, since as far as we're shown his flying boat thing was destroyed?), but that an opponent that literally couldn't think managed to take Gil by surprise. Are you trying to tell me that Berserker could surprise Gil, but not Caster? I bet if Caster surprised Gil with a pound of antimatter instead of chaff from a jet, it would leave a bit more of a mark.

[Levani]

I admit, I am interested in a Caster/Gil fight... too bad that it doesn't happen in the VN.

[NAJ P. Jackson]

Originally Posted by Levani

I admit, I am interested in a Caster/Gil fight... too bad that it doesn't happen in the VN.

It did happen in Fate route albeit offscreen.

[JustThisOne]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I see no evidence to assume that he gains any stats at all from tracing. It was mentioned he replicates their skill, but not their abilities. Of course, I'm not combing through the VN again, so if you can point to where it says that then by all means, I will stand corrected.

http://lparchive.org/Fatestay-night/Update%20362/
Some of the relevant lines, I seriously don't want to search for more.

Spoiler for Quoted from HF:

I stare at it.
I see through his giant sword.
I open my left hand and grasp the imaginary handle of the weapon that has yet to exist.
An extraordinary weight.
Emiya Shirou cannot handle this giant sword.
But my left arm will definitely reproduce the strength of my enemy.


I step forward.
His weapon is in my left hand.
I'm faster.

Firstly, the bold expresses my point exactly. In a similar vein, it would be pretty difficult to pull toys out of GoB if Caster dropped a bucket of magma on his head, for instance.

Also, why do you people think that Servants have human durability? Even unarmored a bucket of magma won't even harm Gil. If servants only had human durability they would simply kill themselves as soon as they clash their weapons, seeing as their physical attacks can casually rend steel and other such.

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I wouldn't really say its a victory in that case, as I imagine a full-powered Ea blast would kill Gilgamesh simultaneously, but I suppose the point is still valid. Though ORT has demonstrated he is capable of space travel, so there is the possibility of him just squeaking off into space after Gil blows up the Earth lol.

Not a problem with Gil with Mythic Formal Wear or when Gil was alive. Gil can also travel through space, much better than ORT. More Fate/Extra CCC stuff.

[TwilightsCall]

Also, why do you people think that Servants have human durability?

I assume Gil has human durability because the Grail gave him a mortal body at the end of Zero.

Also because I don't have a PSP/PSVita, I'll just have to take your word for the CCC stuff. On that note, was Nasu involved with the writing in CCC? I seem to remember he was, but I'm not that confident since I never kept up with Fate/Extra.

[Dengar]

The "mortal body" means he can rightfully exist in the world without needing to be anchored. It doesn't make him frail.

[Endscape]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

See, I feel like this statement perfectly demonstrates that you are underestimating her. Of course she'd lose in a confrontation involving ranged attacks, she'd lose in any confrontation period. But she also doesn't have to confront Gil face to face to kill him. Magic is cool like that.

Gilgamesh can see through magic, so Caster's just out of luck in that area.

[Rising Dragon]

Originally Posted by TwilightsCall

I assume Gil has human durability because the Grail gave him a mortal body at the end of Zero.

Also because I don't have a PSP/PSVita, I'll just have to take your word for the CCC stuff. On that note, was Nasu involved with the writing in CCC? I seem to remember he was, but I'm not that confident since I never kept up with Fate/Extra.

He was involved in some level, but not the writer, IIRC. He took issue with someone already programming in Archer's Excalibur Image attack (due to his earlier retconning in that Archer can't Trace Excalibur), but his response despite that was to alter the conditions of the Moon Cell to allow Divine weapons like Excalibur to be recreated, albeit degraded by one rank from the original weapon. I'm personally not sure what degree of artistic control Nasu had over the games.

[AvatarST]

Aaah damn it. I've been dreading the next ep since the very beginning and I don't think my body is ready yet.

[Guido]

UBW produced by UFO Table does several things right, and one of them is exposing more background information on the other servants and masters. The first Fate anime, produced by DEEN, did not delve that deeper due to being based on the Fate route of the original VN game.

Anyways, as I've seen and read many countless times before it's a likely warranty to be doomed for a Master to summon Caster as his or her Servant. The Caster class are literally mages on their own, and this particular Caster being the mythological Princess Medea proved me how frightening and scary both deception and betrayal are. Nonetheless, I do not blame Caster for what she did to her former Master; that guy being aside a total jerk he was quite unfitting to be a mage regarding his methods.

It would be childish of me to say things such as mages from the antique era were far knowledgeable regarding the workings and nature of magic than modern mages. No, I think the matter is applying common sense and upholding both a sense of aesthetics and reality.
Caster's former master to me felt like a child overreacting at the thought of finding his father's gun to play with it. In this case, the analogy applies to the thrill at getting himself selected for the Fifth Holy Grail War and made too obvious blunders and mishapes.
What I get from most of the Caster class is that they operate in stealth and shadows and make a priority to gather intel and information at how to deal with different threats with utmost effectiveness.

Just to diver the topic, that Master and Caster were not compatible and there was no affinity amongst them, unlike Caster and her affinity with her current master Souichirou; as Rin exposed to Shirou, each one of us has someone we hold a more personal compability with, and there are others we don't get along by nature.
This is for the first half regarding Caster...


The second half went from serious to ominously tragic and then heading for an epic battle....

Simply, Gil slaying both Sella and Leysritt just in the nick of time for Illya to burst in to witness the aftermath of such massacre warrants Berseker vs. Gil in a cosmic battle against two Demi-gods.