(L) Red Garden

[7Th]

After watching the ending… I must say the weakest element, not that everything else is I am able to find in this series is the “plot”, the Delors versus Animus confrontation, itself, which in my opinion is pretty much the only element besides the usual poor Gonzo-animation holding it back from achieving its true potential. I know the conflict just a device to get the dramatic developments going, but it still gets on Geass levels of convenience at times with meaningless badly-thought excuses to move it forward and a pretty idiotic set-up for the actually quite well directed and executed final conflict. The ending was fairly good, the point at where they cut was just perfect; it just suffered from a really bad structure.

[Matrim]

I don't know, I have seen a lot worse in terms of plot. I think Red Garden's one is pretty good for a character driven series. It has its fair share of plotholes but then again so do a lot of highly rated shows, books or movies. Care to share examples of "meaningless badly-thought excuses to move it forward"? I remember Kate going to the lair of enemy in episode 19 as one such example but I can't think of many other.

P.S. You don't like Code Geass' endless plot devices?

[ShellyKukai]

The moral of the story is to stay away from evil insensitive boyfriends.

[7Th]

Originally Posted by Matrim

I don't know, I have seen a lot worse in terms of plot. I think Red Garden's one is pretty good for a character driven series. It has its fair share of plotholes but then again so do a lot of highly rated shows, books or movies. Care to share examples of "meaningless badly-thought excuses to move it forward"? I remember Kate going to the lair of enemy in episode 19 as one such example but I can't think of many other.

P.S. You don't like Code Geass' endless plot devices?

The whole set-up was fairy convenient and ignored quite a few elements developed during the series, the plot seemed to move in quite an unconvincing fashion that felt pretty forced at times, the final “defend the school” battle was fairly well executed and besides my own unnecessary desire of seeing the four girls fighting Lise for a climax satisfying as a conclusion but it pretty much came out of nowhere. See, the way in which Herve discovered Animus’ headquarters, for example, was an example of consequential bad writing.

I really enjoyed the anime in the end, though, as I never watched it for the convulsed Animus versus Delors conflict and I always saw it as nothing than a vehicle for portraying the girls, and companions, life when discovering the unfair war they’ve been put in and for that purpose, it worked wonderfully.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by 7Th

The whole set-up was fairy convenient and ignored quite a few elements developed during the series

like?

See, the way in which Herve discovered Animus’ headquarters, for example, was an example of consequential bad writing.

How so? I don't see it that way, so perhaps you should explain yourself in more detail?

I really enjoyed the anime in the end, though, as I never watched it for the convulsed Animus versus Delors conflict and I always saw it as nothing than a vehicle for portraying the girls, and companions, life when discovering the unfair war they’ve been put in and for that purpose, it worked wonderfully.

Yes, that's the whole point of this series.

Imagine that your life turned on its head. What do you do? How do you react? Do you adapt or do you try to regain what you have lost? Can anything in your life stay the same? It doesn't matter if that which changed your life was mundane or supernatural, as long as the end result is that your life is no longer the same as it was before.

Red Garden is a parable for such a life-changing event. For example, Rachel is growing up, so her angst is not about being dead, but rather about losing her "sweetsixteen" easy and uncomplicated life. It's no coincidence that a lot of her scenes involved Nick, the adult that guided her in this new adult world. It was almost spelled out for the audience, since Nick and Rachel were talking about how black coffee, bitter and hot as it is, is a parable for adult life. Rachel learned to drink that black coffee. She still winces, but she is drinking it.

It's the same for the rest of the girls as well.

Personally, I cannot fault the plot in anything. It was well put together, the script was tight and all the plot lines were resolved. My only displeasure was with the limited nature of the animation in many episodes and the fact that the story was somewhat lost in its thoughts. Other than that, i was greatly content and pleased.

[aliensporebomb]

A really compelling series and I watched the last two in a one-two punch.

Fantastic.

I'd almost like to see a prequel of how this all started, hundreds of years
back. How did they get on earth? Were they always here?

How are the dead turned into living Animus? All kinds of stuff they never
really showed the "how" of.

How are the Delors/Dorals different from humans?

I'm glad to see an OVA forthcoming.

[Sinestra]

I watched the last 3 one after another(thanks Shinsen Subs) when i first started Red Garden i had my doubts but the story kept me so intrigued that I kept watching, and i was not disappointed. Red Garden had a strong and compelling story and the characters managed to find their way into your heart.

Through all the heart ache and violence Red Garden to me was most about learning how to let go of things that you can not change yet keeping hope alive. The growth of the characters through the story was amazing and i felt like each character had enough screen time to explain their indvidual story. In the end they were not monsters or some immortal beings they were simply teenage girls with hopes and dreams who wanted to continue living even if it meant without their memories, to me that show strength of heart and character. I feel that Kate and Rose made the most growth through the series. Kate took a roll as leader quite an achievement for someone so timid, and even the whining cry baby Rose finally accepted her fate and did what needed to be done. But my heart goes out to Rachel the most she had to let go of love knowing that it was not in her or her loves best interest, that showed self sacrifice. Clair managed to come to an understanding with her father which i thought was a nice touch.

I would have liked to see more of the history between Animus and the Delors. but the conclusion its self was enough for me, and i thought it was executed quite well. As for Lise well too me she was the most innocent out of all the girls and doomed from the start which made even more tragic. Even at the end she kept saying i think i have a boyfriend and i can make in time for class those lines alone made her innocent in my eyes. The final scene of the girls waking up holding hands and not knowing who they are broke my heart but we knew it was going to happen.

I would have to say the people i feel sorry for the most are the families of the girls. For all 4 to go missing at once it will most likely lead to some type of investigation. But the people left behind will suffer greatly before they can move on. Roses family was blessed with the father coming home and then they lose her, Kate sister will be devastated having lost her finance and now her sister, Claire's dad and brother will use all their money and influence looking for her, and Rachels parents marriage was not strong to begin with im sure this will break them.


Im curious as to how much time passed from when the girls went to sleep to when they woke up and where were they?

Have to wait months for the freakin OVA WTF

[Jewelray]

The last episode was badass beyond anything I could have expected. Just goes to show that the best way to end a story is to kill everyone.

But, I have to say, overall I didn't really love the show. It had its good points, but I didn't care much for the plot.

I think Red Garden was trying to add a bit of realism to the "Girls acquire supernatural powers and are forced to fight" storyline, which is a noble undertaking. But realistically if a bunch of spoiled brats were put in that situation, they would whine and complain and cry a lot. And that's exactly what the girls in Red Garden did. But, the drawback to this is that girls whining and complaining and crying for 10 episodes is a little annoying. But then, all of a sudden they learn how to fly and buy a baseball bat and it's all ok. Even if it is an analogy for more realistic life issues, I thought it was all kind of silly.

Also detracting from the realism was the singing. I'm sure we've all tried to forget about it (thank god it stopped after the first few episodes) but it really killed the mood at the beginning of the show for me. However, I think the show had a really good soundtrack. It's not the songs that were bad, they just shouldn't have been placed as musical numbers during the show. At least they didn't dance too. Maybe if they had used better singers it stilly would have been cheesy but at least it wouldn’t have been as painful. Kokia sings them on the soundtrack and that makes it all (almost) worth it.

There was a fair amount of character development. The girls learn that there is a time to stop grieving and move forward and that they have to work together and look past petty differences. They learn that their problems from everyday life aren't really as big as they thought they were. How sweet. As for the tale of the high school stereotypes who through facing a common obstacle realize their differences are superficial and then become friends, I think Breakfast Club did it better.

At first the setting also really bothered me. There was no reason for it to be set in New York other than that Japanese people think New York is cool. But I guess that's not really a problem and I have to say they handled the cultural differences pretty accurately. It was interesting to see them try to take the Japan out of anime. It's kind of cool to see how other countries view American culture. Too bad New York isn't actually as clean as Red Garden presented it.

The clothing was also a nice touch. At first I thought "no one actually dresses like that!" But then I walked through some higher end fashion stores and the style was exactly what the girls in Red Garden wore. The outfits were really detailed and it turns out, pretty accurate at least somewhere in the country.

It got a lot more interesting near the end but the “It’s a supernatural Romeo and Juliet except that Romeo doesn’t like Juliet and they end up beating the crap out of each other at the end” plot didn’t do it for me.

I don't see the point of an OVA. The ending was really good. I think it was the kind of ending that doesn't need a continuation-- you more or less know what is going to happen and it's more fulfilling to use your imagination.

[Guido]

UNBELIEVABLE! Thanks to Shinsen-Subs I finally watched the last episode of Red Garden.

My point about the pacing for the last episode is that it carried out fast and quickly, but not at any moment I felt that events were forced or rushed to give way IMO to the two most powerful scenes that were left to last for the ending.

As for the ending per se it was nothing special. By the manner on how the camera zoomed away from Roosevelt Island as the depth music played and the credits roll at the same time while the camera was on motion, it felt as a Hollywood movie which got too much hype as the big thing with the internet advertising.

The story for Red Garden is nothing out of the world or outstanding. But it is gripping and sometimes chilling, as the last episode perfectly played out the most clever device to the unfortunate outcome.

Spoiler:

Kill off everyone. Mass killings to the left and to the right and spare no one, save for the girls who perservered to start a new life and wake up from the dream of the death.

It struck me on the way the Animus died, turning into black powder after, as Hervé literally put it, being broken. But instantly I recalled a flashback from episode four about other girls who were put on the same life-death situation by Lula like Kate and the others. Those girls let themselves to be killed and turned into black powder as well.

Unfortunately, I lost empathy and respect for Hervé once he became absorbed by his bloodlust for revenge that never paid true attention to Anna's pain and instead deluding the inevitable with illusions about the sake for a bright future. Apart that he lashed out on Kate with verbal mockery.

Spoiler:

The girls did not want to have anything to do with the mess that others started. They played no other choice but that one.

While Hervés' actions are quite justifiable to reach anything to ensure the survival of his loved ones he has no rights whatsoever to criticize or blame those four girls for the comeuppances that the cursed inflicted on him and his family.

That was out of Kate, Rachel, Rose, and Claire's control. It was despicable from him to treat Kate as an object. Again, he took that course of action in order to get know anything about Animus to use at his advantage on any way possible to have the edge on the war and winning it to end the curse.

His eyes were a measure to the loss of conventional sanity.

Unfortunately, I as well am such a sentimental guy.

Spoiler:

I could not help feel sobbing for Hervé and crying for the sin he was forced to commit.

It was too late for Hervé to grasp the truth. Anna was beyond salvation and all twinges of hope and innocence let within him were lastly broken when the inevitable happened for Anna to wake up as a Doral.
The music was so painfully poignant that made the scene frozen in still time.

It was a powerful impact to watch Hervé screaming painstakingly and crying as he was literally breaking Anna with a love hug, and the power of that scene carried on having Hervé died literally hugging Anna.

The writers and animators receive praise from my part for such a poignant tragedy that makes one to root and feel miserable for the character, because one can identify with that character's loss or sense of guilt as if its one's own.

My terrible complain and which I think it turns into this episode's critical flaw and may as well as the entire storyline's plothole was Lise's outcome.

Spoiler:

With all the hype centered around her throughout most of the series as the key to the Doral's survive and being reduced to a cast character to make her way into the school as just an average day off was highly anti-climatic for my taste.

I mean come on! Lise got this great shit with Hervé toying with her; breaking down and turning all animal-like two episodes before. Then, later she reappears in the school with a memory reset and gets to live at the end of the war.

What happen to the Lise that suffered for the love of a man, who would never reciprocate to those feelings of her?
Everyone was anticipating Lise to play a pivotal or antagonistic role by the end, but she was downgraded as the side character. As the damsel that was at last found and reunited not by her prince Hervé but by the group of friends in Kate, Rachel, Claire, and Rose who knew and loved her.

As far as the ending went, Lise dying and turning into black powder without the other girls ever noticing or witnessing makes it up for the loss of her character's value.
I mean it would leave an even more tragic record on the audience, because Lise will never be remembered by her dearest friends since all four of them will eventually lose all of their memories. It would be as if Lise never existed in their minds or lives, and the saddest part of all is that Kate and others would have to live on with a small void within themselves because even if any memory of Lise is erased the feeling for Lise will stay there.

[glainfach]

I just wanted to post a big thank you to the people of Shinsen-Subs and GG for all the hard work they put into bringing us this series. Great work all of you!

[asakomi]

Originally Posted by glainfach

I just wanted to post a big thank you to the people of Shinsen-Subs and GG for all the hard work they put into bringing us this series. Great work all of you!

Thank you, your kind words are much appreciated. ^^

[Nergol]

A couple things:

Spoiler for Episodes 21 and 22:

What was that club that Paula and Kate went to in Episode 21? Was that supposed to be a lesbian club? You don't think they - erm - do you? Kate seemed to indicate that whatever it is they did there she didn't really like. Was it girl-luvin'? Was she giving Paula a "LJBF" let-down?

The only good guy I can see in the whole deal was Herve. Why were the girls so loyal to Animus the whole time? Did they ever wonder wether they might be on the wrong side? I don't see why Animus was particularly any "better" than Doral. Animus kind of used the girls.

What killed Lise?

Oddly, the last shot gives away that the story's supposed to be set in the near future. If you look at lower Manhattan as the panorama shot pulls back, you'll see that the Freedom Tower has been completed. At the pace things are going, that won't actually happen for quite a while.

[DannoHung]

I'm really conflicted. Here's a series with a fairly interesting premise and absolutely wonderful characterizations, but the most incoherent plot this side of Ultraviolet. It was sort of a let down overall, kinda like the second season of Honey and Clover.

I'm just confused about one thing: Was Paula an Animus or not?

edit: I feel I should clarify: The weakness of the plot dilutes the losses that the characters ultimately suffer through. Without a meaningful and compelling reason for them to be bruised and injured through the course of the series, it just comes off as sadism.

To be honest, my favorite parts of the whole show were Claire and Rose's family/relationship subplots.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by Nergol

A couple things:

Spoiler for Episodes 21 and 22:

The only good guy I can see in the whole deal was Herve. Why were the girls so loyal to Animus the whole time? Did they ever wonder wether they might be on the wrong side? I don't see why Animus was particularly any "better" than Doral. Animus kind of used the girls.

Spoiler:

Better to be memoryless that dead.

Spoiler:

What killed Lise?

Spoiler:

The fact that she had Delore blood from Bender's transfusions.

Spoiler:

Oddly, the last shot gives away that the story's supposed to be set in the near future. If you look at lower Manhattan as the panorama shot pulls back, you'll see that the Freedom Tower has been completed. At the pace things are going, that won't actually happen for quite a while.

Spoiler:

Um, the show takes place in 2009. That was known a long time ago.

Originally Posted by DannoHung

I'm really conflicted. Here's a series with a fairly interesting premise and absolutely wonderful characterizations, but the most incoherent plot this side of Ultraviolet. It was sort of a let down overall, kinda like the second season of Honey and Clover.

If you aren't paying attention, perhaps that is so. I wasn't confused in the least.

I'm just confused about one thing: Was Paula an Animus or not?

No.

[DannoHung]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

If you aren't paying attention, perhaps that is so. I wasn't confused in the least.

I wasn't confused, I just don't think the general rules of the fiction were established in a manner that even approaches satisfying.

I really think it would've been a stronger drama if they'd extracted all of the characters and their personal conflicts and dropped in a more normal conflict. Especially considering that Lise's service to the plot was quintessentially that of an inanimate object.

Perhaps something like the girls are being blackmailed by the "Animus" for something. I dunno, just tossing ideas out.

[MrProphet]

Originally Posted by DannoHung

I really think it would've been a stronger drama if they'd extracted all of the characters and their personal conflicts and dropped in a more normal conflict.

That would rob the story of any semblance of intrigue.

And what could it have been about? They are stressed about school/love/work/friends/younameit, they go to a shrink, visit a spa, end of story, we're done. I've seen enough bad Hollywood films to know how utterly boring and mind-numbingly pointless that is.

[DannoHung]

Originally Posted by MrProphet

That would rob the story of any semblance of intrigue.

And what could it have been about? They are stressed about school/love/work/friends/younameit, they go to a shrink, visit a spa, end of story, we're done. I've seen enough bad Hollywood films to know how utterly boring and mind-numbingly pointless that is.

So what you're saying is that the characters are only interesting in the context of superpowers?

[MrProphet]

The characters are not the only thing driving the show. Intriguing plot is no laughing matter and, frankly, I wouldn't want Red Garden to become another season of "Friends", if yoi know what I mean. 8)

[Dandruff]

I enjoyed the series personally, I liked the charactor designs, the charactors, I liked that it was set somewhere *not* in Japan. The story was fun and I happen to like 'Open Endings', it's a taste I devloped considering many animes have this sort of ending, lol.

[Matrim]

I really think it would've been a stronger drama if they'd extracted all of the characters and their personal conflicts and dropped in a more normal conflict.

How exactly could that have happened when much of the drama caused by this very conflict? Kind of hard to think of a more normal conflict which would expose Rose's cowardness, make them all enjoy life to the full and at another point put them into total despair, build-up the team spirit step by step and so on. The whole point was that they were in an impossible situation and couldn't tell anyone about their plight. The characters weren't only interesting in the context of being dead and having superpowers but a lot of their development stems form these facts. And of course, a well executed combination of character driven drama and supernatural conflict is more intersting, or at least not as cliche, as just the drama.

The weakness of the plot dilutes the losses that the characters ultimately suffer through. Without a meaningful and compelling reason for them to be bruised and injured through the course of the series, it just comes off as sadism.

Does it always have be some reason for everything? Do you mean the characters should have done something to deserve all this suffering? Isn't getting caught in the middle between two opposing fractions, good enough reason for someone's life to become very unpleasant?

What was that club that Paula and Kate went to in Episode 21? Was that supposed to be a lesbian club? You don't think they - erm - do you? Kate seemed to indicate that whatever it is they did there she didn't really like. Was it girl-luvin'? Was she giving Paula a "LJBF" let-down?

Not that I wouldn't like this to have been the case but it seems very doubtful, why would they complain about the smoke in the club if what they did was having sex? I think they just partied all night in a disco club or something like that and it was the first tiem Kate had done something liek that, being so concentrated on studying and all.

To be honest, my favorite parts of the whole show were Claire and Rose's family/relationship subplots.

To each his own but I think these two storylines were resolved a tad too easily. Call me cynical but at least one of the two fathers should have remained, well, a bastard, to the end.