Macross Delta - Episode 4 Discussion / Poll

[Magewolf]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

Except that your logic does not follow the premises used in the show.

First of all, no nukes on civilians, unless it is really the last resort. In the NUN governments are democratically elected, they do respond to the public opinion. They have a long standing policy of seeking friendship with non human species, and they are not gonna change that overnight.

Secondly, it is a single planet on the rim of the galaxy. Yes, it has declared war to the NUN, but does it look so menacing that you necessitate to mobilize the whole NUN against it? The answer is no. They will first try to commit a more adequate force in terms of cost-effectiveness to make them surrender. It would also take time to amass a sizeable force, due to decentralization of governments.

Thirdly, the Windermerians have obviously their secret weapons. In the previous episodes, the var syndrome appeared to just make Zentradi go berserk. Now it is revelead that it is an actual form of mind control, and it appears to work even on people other than Zentradi. If the NUN try to attack in forces, they can probably create an army of mind slaves in one fell swoop.

Windermere has been running a campaign of terrorist attacks on civilians throughout the area. And they have just taken over a planet and declared war on the universe. I do not know how much popular support they are going to get.

Windermere has shown that they are able to project force in at least 2 areas at once in NUNS space and they have a super power that NUNS only has one defense against. That makes a defensive war stupid for the NUNS because they have much more area to defend and that lets Windermere pick their fights and concentrate there forces.

So you go offense, get together a fleet have Walkure protect it and attack Windermere. That forces Windermere to gather their forces and engage NUNS head on where their Var defense is.

While the fleet is doing that NUNS is calling in forces from across the universe especially from 7 and Frontier. So unless Windermere is more powerful then the Protoculture and the Protodeviln they are going down.


However what we are probably going to get is NUNS running around like a chicken with it's head cut off and Walkure hopping from area to area trying to defend against Var.

[Kazu-kun]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

While the fleet is doing that NUNS is calling in forces from across the universe especially from 7 and Frontier.

And leaving those areas unprotected? I don't think so.

If you want things to be logical, you shouldn't expect something like that to happen.

[Tak]

You see on the bottom right of the page, it clearly states: This book is not an Official File - 公式設定ではなく。

Originally Posted by Annorax

What I meant is this:

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Basically it says that this book is a in-universe work published in macross plympia right?

Of course it has a lot of pretty artworks and it ships A x S, so I approve!

- Tak

[Gravitas Free Zone]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

However what we are probably going to get is NUNS running around like a chicken with it's head cut off and Walkure hopping from area to area trying to defend against Var.

When there was a high percentage of main characters in NUNS (M7), NUNS was at least semi-competent. They were simply not expecting the Protodeviln.

When only a few main characters were in NUNS (MF), NUNS was a punching bag and also saddled with internal conflicts, on top of taking a long time to figure out the Vajra.

Nobody in the Delta cast is explicitly in NUNS. You can see where this is going.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Gravitas Free Zone

Nobody in the Delta cast is explicitly in NUNS. You can see where this is going.

Depends on how you define explicit. The NUNS encompasses all territories possessed by humanity so far. Delta is part of the NUNS and not like the SMS of Frontier. The Wind Kingdom declared war on NUNS and not a specific colony or sector.

7 years ago prior to the series, Wind Kingdom rebelled and declared independence from NUNS. Since then they have isolated themselves and banned human culture.

- Tak

[Shikijin]

Originally Posted by Magewolf

Windermere has been running a campaign of terrorist attacks on civilians throughout the area. And they have just taken over a planet and declared war on the universe. I do not know how much popular support they are going to get.

That's still not enough support to nuke them. This is not the first war in the Macross universe. Windermere is not the only menace in the galaxy.

Windermere has shown that they are able to project force in at least 2 areas at once in NUNS space and they have a super power that NUNS only has one defense against.

I think people have yet to discover that the VAR syndrome works like mind control, and that the Windermerians are causing it. Up to now it looked just like random occurrences of Zentradi going berserk.

That makes a defensive war stupid for the NUNS because they have much more area to defend and that lets Windermere pick their fights and concentrate there forces.

But even so, normally an attrition war would advantage the NUNS. The Windermerians can attack and win, but ideally they should have no ways to hold their planets.

Of course sooner or later the NUNS army will come, but at first the Windermerians will be underestimated.

While the fleet is doing that NUNS is calling in forces from across the universe especially from 7 and Frontier. So unless Windermere is more powerful then the Protoculture and the Protodeviln they are going down.

The Protodeviln are nobody's ally, in fact they should have gone to another galaxy.

[Tak]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

The Protodeviln are nobody's ally, in fact they should have gone to another galaxy.

Where is Basara when we need him!!

- Tak

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Shikijin

The Protodeviln are nobody's ally, in fact they should have gone to another galaxy.

Gabil is still around randomly giving VHS tapes of Fire Bomber's adventures. (Macross FB7)

He visited Frontier mid-series.

Planets mentioned first time in Delta.

Al-Shahal
Ragna
Windermere
Listania
Ebel
Gregor
Randor
Vordor

These are planets in the Rim Worlds region. We are not sure if Zola is among these planets or is closer to the Orion Spiral Arm Rim.
Roid mentioned a Brisingr Alliance. Could be the local NUN association, another interplanetary faction or Windermere allies.

Spoiler for Named Planets in Macross:

Al Shahal
Avalon
Avemaria
Banipal(?, there are coal mines there, so presumably some settlement exists)
Bellfan
Beneb
Cristania
Dahan
Ebel
Eden
Eden 3 (not the same star system)
Elysium (abandoned)
Endebald
Ganymede (also a moon)
Gregor
Hue (Basara visited this planet on a Tousugeki Love Heart video)
Hydra
Iota
Jupiter (multiple satellite cities)
Listania
Luna (technically a moon, but hey)
Mars
Neo York
Neptune (satellite city)
New Asia (Declared bio hazard)
Ragna(?, there's an emigrant ship there, at least)
Randor
Rax (destroyed)
Salvation
Saturn (satellite city)
Sephira (Leon Sasaki's home colony)
Susia
Uroboros
Varauta
Veil
Venus ("satellite city" orbital colony)
Vordor (Invaded by Windermere)
Vulcan
Windermere(?, like Ragna, but apparently abandoned)

[azarhal]

Originally Posted by Tak

Depends on how you define explicit. The NUNS encompasses all territories possessed by humanity so far. Delta is part of the NUNS and not like the SMS of Frontier. The Wind Kingdom declared war on NUNS and not a specific colony or sector.

7 years ago prior to the series, Wind Kingdom rebelled and declared independence from NUNS. Since then they have isolated themselves and banned human culture.

- Tak

Wasn't it 6 years ago?

Delta/Walkures were created to fight off the VAR syndrome, not fill in for the NUN Spacey. So yeah, they are not like SMS. They are more like first responders, but instead of firefighters and ambulances you get variable jets and tactical idols.

This war against Windermere might end up more of a background thing in the show because of that too.

It also wouldn't surprise me if what happened back during the Windermere independence war was part of the plot.

[ReddyRedWolf]

Originally Posted by Tak

Where is Basara when we need him!!

- Tak

Speculation is the Earther that gave the media player to Freyja was Basara. He has inspired her much like Sheryl. Sheryl as child was inspired by Basara.

He doesn't need to show up as he has set up successors.

If Mikumo had met Basara before and recognized the player she is teaching Freyja as Basara isn't into this whole mentoring thing. He inspire others like with Saburo, Alto's adopted older brother who met Basara on top of a train on Planet Hue. (MF LN)

[Tak]

Well, if we need the power of Protodevlins, I don't think his successors will do...

As for Sheryl, Alto probably inspired her just as much, if not more.

And seriously, VHS in the Wind Kingdom? Oh dear...

- Tak

[magnuskn]

Originally Posted by Tak

Where is Basara when we need him!!

- Tak

Probably shtupping Sivvil.

[AkitoW013]

Originally Posted by Tak

Where is Basara when we need him!!

- Tak

Singing with space whales ans vajras.

[Kazu-kun]

Anyone noticed how Mikumo's hair hardens when she sings? It seems to gather fold energy too.

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[karice67]

Originally Posted by Annorax

What I meant is this:

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Basically it says that this book is a in-universe work published in macross Olympia right?

In a word: yes.

I also went and checked the other books where I could: most of them are published in Macross City, with the only other outlier being the VF-22 Masterfile, which was published on Eden.

So yeah, I've taken it exactly the same way as you have: they're as canon as the various TV series and films because they're all works made 'in-universe', rather than in our own world. Sketchley, who's translated far more stuff about Macross than I have (but who seems to be outside the core group that does the Macross World podcast, if any of you listen to that), appears to interpret these disclaimers in exactly the same way.

p.s.

Originally Posted by Tak

You see on the bottom right of the page, it clearly states: This book is not an Official File - 公式設定ではなく。

The way that "公式設定" tends to be used in Japanese is for this kind of stuff. Take from that what you will. ^^

[wissenschaft]

Originally Posted by Tak

Music is Order Discipline!! *cracks whip*

There, corrected for ya.

Hayate: Music is... SUBMISSION!

- Tak

I'm pretty sure I've already heard Idol Mirage's theme song:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w355NPnCMSM

Now we just need Mirage to make some heel clicks. :P

[Tak]

Actually you are both right. If taken as an in-verse gig, then its consistent with other media in the name of in-verse publishing. I think I have misinterpreted. Thought he was asking about official canon.

Though is it officially canon? Plotwise? Well, its a bit iffy. I think we have experienced enough discussions on that front since Fromtier.

Eh I guess you can compare to DYRL databooks, which are consistent with DYRL in-verse, but its not exactly Macross official canon.

Originally Posted by karice67

In a word: yes.

I also went and checked the other books where I could: most of them are published in Macross City, with the only other outlier being the VF-22 Masterfile, which was published on Eden.

So yeah, I've taken it exactly the same way as you have: they're as canon as the various TV series and films because they're all works made 'in-universe', rather than in our own world. Sketchley, who's translated far more stuff about Macross than I have (but who seems to be outside the core group that does the Macross World podcast, if any of you listen to that), appears to interpret these disclaimers in exactly the same way.

p.s.
The way that "公式設定" tends to be used in Japanese is for this kind of stuff. Take from that what you will. ^^

- Tak

[germanturkey]

SHERYRURURURURURURU!! all these emotions flooding back.. this was quite an episode. a fair amount of development for a lot of characters. the show hasn't resonated with me quite as much as frontier did at this point. possibly due to the stupidity of Hayate and mech dancing. 30 year life span makes for good drama.

i'm getting strike freedom vibes from that second pic of Mikumo. maybe that's her secret.

[karice67]

Originally Posted by Tak

Actually you are both right. If taken as an in-verse gig, then its consistent with other media in the name of in-verse publishing. I think I have misinterpreted. Thiught he was asking about official canon.

Though is it officially canon? Plotwise? Well, its a bit iffy. I think we have experienced enough discussions on that front since Fromtier.

True, we have definitely discussed that to death here and elsewhere. My take on it is that nothing is 'Macross official canon' (at least, not in the sense of 'canon' that almost everyone seems to want). As Kawamori has said, there is a history in the Macross universe. The best we can do is to try and think like historians and figure out what the in-universe 'historical record' tells us about what really happened.

For example, as this episode of Delta showed us, there is a history of singers/performers who probably did exist (dunno about Sharon, I guess ). Given that the valks are the core mecha in this universe, I'd say that the various models probably did exist too.

So I do think that this is a valid idea to take from the VF-25 masterfile:

Originally Posted by Annorax

But mahou shoujo or not, the NUNS is still using 171ex it seems, atleast the ones on less important fringe space. The VF-25 master file reveal that the 25 is in the process of being adopted and slowing phasing out old planes, but so far only some places have them.

======

Originally Posted by Tak

Eh I guess you can compare to DYRL databooks, which are consistent with DYRL in-verse, but its not exactly Macross official canon.

What are the DYRL databooks, btw? Do you have a link to anything about them?

If you mean the DYRL Data Bank that is listed and described here, then no. That's a book I own (in ebook format), and it's definitely an 'official guidebook' type of publication, one that was published in our world. It contains 公式設定 materials, designs, artwork etc for the DYRL movie.

[Kazu-kun]

Guys, this thread is about Delta episode 4. Take the discussion on continuity and databooks elsewhere please.