Morality in Code Geass? Do the ends justify the means?

[atilim]

Lelouch won the battle of Narita now mather how you look. De damage to the Oder was little, they lost 3 or 4 Knightmares and thats it. Cornelia lost at least 80% during the operation only to the landslide. SO it is Lelouch victory either way around.

Also the part of "I'm bigger than yours" as you say is important because we are talking about there way of achiving things. Uptil now you talked about Suzaku and his doing things is better on the whol. But the fact is he isn't doing anything.

[seraphon]

nanaya..... you must really love suzaku no?

I m not trying to judge what you said or what the other said.
But ONE thing is totally undeniable: Suzaku cannot change britannia. Even if all the royal familie dies except yuffie. Why you could ask me....

Because Brittania isnt a democracy , not even a monarchy by the feeling cg gives us, but a dictature ruled by the almigthy king and the noble court. You may say that the conquered area can govern themselves and such but it looks to me that the king can do whatever he wants (by assassination if needed) and the nobles can also have some pression on the king (well not on lulu s father coz hes too strong). But yuffie if she is ever to be queen wouldnt use murder or anything of the sort, and thus couldnt control the empire because other people(the britannian nobles) wouldnt hesitate to murder her for the throne. The power struggle in the higher sphere of the britanian empire is a real lion pit and there is no way that an honorary britanian can change that.

Another thing that you cant deny is that it is quite wrong for suzaku to always speak of justice. I m not saying that zero is more in the justice side than suzaku nor that suzaku is a treator. But Britannia had invaded japan for money and thus killed a lot of people , than parked most of the people in ghettos and calling them by a number like animals or objects. Althougth there is a system of honorary britanians, it must be really hard for the japanese to get it, because you must accept to become a dog to the britanians (the hot dog seller WAS a honorary britanian and to work he must endure some humiliation). We must not forget that it has not been a very long time since britania invaded japan so rigth now britannians are still invaders in most japanese views. It is really hard to try to blend in..... ok suzaku is trying to give an example by trying to get the best of the britanian invasion but it is not easy, not everyone can do it. Try to think for a real life exemple in the place of the irakians. Is it easy to be supportive to the americans who invaded their country? (well of course irak is very extreme).
Well back to topic, I wanted to say that terrorrisms in a country that has been invaded is to be expected, it is totally normal. But the army of occupation that figth the terrorrists hardly have justice with them, and thus suzaku that works for such an army doesnt have justice behind him.


Well I know there migth be holes in my speech, coz it was long and I m too lazy to reread, but I ll gladly develop my point of view to say that it is totally impossible for suzaku to change britannia and that suzaku is a hypocrite if he thinks justice is with him/the britnian army

[seraphon]

Oh I forgot to say that winning always make you rigth coz its well known that its the victors that make history (and you can even put in place morals that indeed make you the allie of justice).

[Plan 36]

Hi I'm new here (I've lurked for a while, but just registered today).

I have to say that I hate Suzaku with a passion, for cooperating with the empire that invaded his own country and treat his own people like dog, and for being a hypocrite. I hope that Lelouch or whoever will give him a healthy dose of reality, make him fall like a rock and cry like a little girl (ala Shinn Asuka) eventually. Death is too good for him.

[antheonoileo]

If you can't even see that Suzaku is trying to achieve his goal by being an outstanding Honorary Britannian that the royalty will respect and listen to, then you are the one who has no clue as to what Suzaku is trying to do.

If you have read all of our posts, you will know we have the arguments for it already:

(1) You are misunderstanding between an "useful tool" and a "respectable human". He can show that he is an "outstanding Honorary Britannian" or whatever, and even if the royalty may "respect" him (not really though, except Euphie, they only feel glad to have such a good dog), he cannot make them listen to him, as:

- Even a prince is nothing, so the words of just a "honor" has no weight. Remember Lulu's mother. She become empress from a commoner, and see what she got. Suzaku is much lower than her in all's view, and will be easily eliminated if they want. Euphie now may also be dead if she raises his idea.

- Showing that one can be "good" doesn't lead to the change of Britanian's mind about all of the Japanese (the empires will only think: ok, this traitor is useful). You know, a good dog is always a dog, and lower than even a bad person.

--> He is only know as the Number pilot of Lancelot. Like the Lancelot, he may climb to an important position, but always they use him, not vice versa (maybe yes if he only want sth for himself, and has a brain, here he has no brain and wants a revolution !!)

(2) As I've said, his "changing from inside" is unrealistic. But more important than that is what he's doing is not less evil than Zero but he is so shameless to be angry with Zero's every move (to him, Zero shouldn't save the hostages, and let them face the risks to die in his show-off). Moreover, he didn't piss of with the army's massacres at all, and still helping them to kill his ppl

[Trax]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Suzaku's methods take time, which is why a lot of people can't see where he's going. If you can't see his goal of wanting Elevens to gain acceptance as equal partners in the Empire with this self-sacrifice, then you will never understand what Suzaku's fighting for.

As I pointed out before, I just don't think he really has a good idea of what he's trying to achieve and how he wants to achieve it. His basic plan seems to be playing Brittania lapdog so he can minimize casualties with some sort of belief it will change the way Brittania operates. I seriously wonder if even Suzaku himself knows what he's fighting for, or if he's just running away from his past.

People may call Suzaku a traitor, but the truth is Japan is now Area 11, a Britannian Colony, for almost a decade (7 years). What he wants to do is to change the empire from within by gaining acceptance from the higher ups for his achievements. If he succeeds, then won't the people praise him as well?

My guess is he actually is a traitor (hinted by his induced flashbacks, although not confirmed), and because of that he has sought refuge among the Britannians. He may even have gotten his honorary citizenship based on this. Apart from that, he's still a hypocrite by lamenting victims while conveniently ignoring the actions of the very army he is a part of.

And that is why people clearly hate Suzaku. That is HIS sacrifice. However, if and when Britannians learn to trust Elevens, then won't their treatment improve? You are right when you say that the people may not be happy now, but what does that mean that they will also be happy killing Britannians as well?

I never said they would be killing Britannians; I mentioned specifically that most would just endure it out of selfpreservation. Plus I don't think he's sacrificing much really by being among Britannians since I suspect he is reluctant to face Elevens because of his possible past betrayal.

Remember that not all Britannians are killing machines and some Britannians vouch for the Elevens like in the meeting with Cornelia about Area 11's zaibatsus being needed for the economy to move forward.

Not sure what the point of this is, it's obvious there are plenty of non-military Britannians and they are sure to have their share of openminded and nonhostile people. It's obvious they need the natives' cooperation for Area 11 to thrive, but that's just being practical and doesn't necessarily mean they think well of the Elevens. Although I'm surprised we haven't seen any of them question their nation's policy of invading and colonizing other countries, props to their country's propoganda I suppose, which probably is partly responsible for most of the image their people have of the countries they invade, resulting in alot of the discrimination.

You just CAN'T say CAN'T.

It is this narrow thinking (no one and nothing will change) that makes Suzaku look like a stupid fool. Suzaku is pinning his hopes on a better government where Elevens can take a part in serving equally. It is idealistic, but with the way he is going, he can possibly cause a change that makes Lelouche's goals not even worth doing anymore.

Sure I can. What you're suggesting is a long shot at best, with the current emperor still in place. Even if he would become aware of Suzaku's exploits, that's no guarantee he would acknowledge him, let alone be influenced by him. He might even have purist inclinations and have him demoted or kicked out of the Britannian military. If I were to speculate on what's going to happen in CG, I'd say the emperor will die at some point which might allow Suzaku to make a difference.

Oh, and if anything makes Suzaku look like a fool it's his own actions and statements. Actually staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly by them, and making hypocritical statements about Zero don't reflect well on himself. Lelouche is no saint, and he does have his own agenda, but at least he doesn't make excuses for himself.

And from what can be obtained from the previous episodes, normal people don't like the terrorism and fighting going on. If the discrimination disappears, then people won't have anything to grumble about anymore, right? They'll then feel that the Empire is their own, rather than just being a colony.

It's unlikely they'll feel that way any time soon, even with less discrimination. You don't suddenly "forget" you're the victim of a hostile invasion. It would make it easier to bear, but that's a kind of grudge that doesn't die out easily. Ofcourse they don't like the unrest caused by the rebellion either, because of the resulting tension and a chance to get caught in the middle.

People in this forum may not be concerned about the discrimination bit, but to the Elevens, it is this discrimination that makes them feel like prisoners in their own country. Eliminate the discrimination and the Elevens won't feel like prisoners anymore. But this discrimination is still caused by the distrust that Lelouch is bringing to the Elevens with his belligerent actions.

It's not caused by Lelouche, it was already there. Ofcourse his actions don't help it either, but that's another matter. And from the support he's getting it seems that they generally symphatize with his actions. I think it's safe to say they feel like prisoners in their own country because it's being occupied by a hostile military force, the discrimination only reinforces that feeling.

Lelouch and Suzaku are complete antithesis of each other. One is belligerency while one is cooperation. Both sides of the coin can change the empire, but the difference in the two is that one side sacrifices lives, the other sacrifices freedoms.

Both sacrifice lives, either directly or indirectly.

Lelouch's goals are to kill his father and to destroy an empire. Suzaku's goals are to get his people integrated in the empire as accepted citizens.

Is that really Suzaku's goal? He hasn't exactly been clear about what he's trying to achieve.

The Britannians consider those who aid and allow the spread of insurgent groups as accomplices. By that standard, they are no longer "innocent". It's tough and sounds cruel but militarily, that is the most efficient way of defeating insurgencies.

That's just a convenient excuse they make for themselves. You can be sure they will realize that plenty of people in the ghettos don't want to get involved with the rebellion for fear of retaliation. From a military pov it might still be the best way to deal with the rebels, but they know for a fact that they're killing a fair share of innocent people in the process.

[Santa Claus]

Nanaya:

You bring up good points, and it's good to see someone arguing Suzaku's side for a change.

With that said:

Plot device, or no, isn't it the same as Lelouche getting the Geas in the first place? Something we can just call as their destinies. Had Lelouche not gotten the Geas, his ideas would be moving FAR slower than Suzaku's, ne?

Yes, both the Geass ability and Lancelot are plot devices (IMO, obviously.) The difference is in how Lelouche and Suzaku uses them, respectively. Lulu could EASILY have just gotten out of Shinjuku, but he didn't. He chose to stay and fight. He actually used his plot device instead of depending on more, and more, and more. We can argue whether the Guren is a PD as well, too. I'm not going to say he was in the right in everything he's done, because he is obviously a very, very morally grey character.

Now let's consider Suzaku. He joins the military. Great. He wants to change Britannia from the inside. Also great. Respectable goal. Purely idiotic means of getting his message across. Before we get to his means, let's examine his actions thus far:

1) BECAUSE Karen & Co. stole C.C. and Lulu happens to get stuck in the whole ensuing mess, Suzie gets a shiny mech. Because of this, he is in effect bringing a gun to a fist fight everytime he waltzed onto the field.
2) BECAUSE Lulu got the Geass ability and committed fratricide, Suz gets public recognition for a crime he didn't commit. Not really a good thing, but it leads into his other "accomplishments."
3) BECAUSE Lulu CHOSE to save him, he gets cleared of all charges.
4) BECAUSE he gets cleared of all charges, he meets Euphie. A royal princess who just so happens to have a military general for an elder sister.
5) BECAUSE Lulu Oranged Jeremiah, Suzaku was able to act the hero and save the day.
6) BECAUSE Zero was such a thorn in Cornelia's side, Suzaku got to play the dashing hero, again. And again. And again.

Now, of all the things he's supposedly accomplished, how many of those things would he have gotten done if Zero wasn't in the picture? I say, not bloody much. He'd likely have died without anyone knowing his name. Would Britannia have recognized his service? Probably not.

Suzaku sure likes to whine about the meaning of justice and all that merry stuff, but the doing seems quite out of his league. Lloyd even takes him to task on the very matter on at least two separate occasions. Even Lulu's dependence on PDs isn't quite this drastic. He does take matters into his own hands whenever possible.

However, I'll buy the destiny bit. Perhaps Suzaku was fated for these things. Unlikely to happen in the real world, but perfectly fine within the confines of an animated series. But let us now examine his methods. The Numbers system takes away a nation's cultural identity. A conquered country suddenly becomes little more than a number in Britannia's territories: no culture, no identity, no pride. As someone above this post said, Britannia behaves like a military dictatorship, and strength seems to be valued above all else.

Now please tell me how a Number can ever hope to impress his obviously racist superiors (I'm thinking of the Special Ops commander in Episode 1 here.) Even the rank and file seems to have little qualms with killing the elderly, and women and children.

These are your examples of understanding Britannians.

Euphemia. The Student Council. They are Britannians.

It just goes to show that acceptance comes. Not suddenly, but it does.

Let me just point out that all of these people are sheltered. Judging from her air-headed behavior during the Purist fracas, Euphemia was pampered and protected from court intrigues by her extremely powerful older sister. As such, she's an idealist: in her opinion, it'd be great if everyone held hands and sang songs. It's perfectly reasonable that she'd be well disposed towards equality for all. Somehow, I doubt the Darwin-loving members of her family think the same way. And they are the ones who can institute change.

Cornelia isn't the greatest example either: Suzaku saved her life as well as that of her beloved sister. She's biased towards him. How impressed would she have been with Suzaku if he hadn't done those things? Would she have been impressed in his ability to follow orders? No - the woman kills soldiers who can't follow retreat orders, as we've all seen.

And the student council (and here, I'm guessing you're excluding Nina.) Biggest bunch of fops I've ever seen. Likely to be quite well off if they're attending a prestigious academic institution. Most likely just as sheltered as Euphie. How about the other students at Ashford? You know, the ones that were so excited at looking over pictures of the Shinjuku massacre? The only Britannians that truly accept Elevens as equals despite their upbringing, IMO, are Cecil and maybe Diethard. Two people in a sea of racists. In fact, I'll even toss in the entire Ashford Academy as supporters of equality in all Britannia. That's what...a thousand people? Opposed to the entire Purist faction, and the seemingly ingrained idea of Britannian superiority over inferior 'Numbers.' Suddenly the future looks bleak.

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.


In the end, I guess all I have to say regarding Suzaku is his original character concept is truly strange. It's like he thinks that by doing his job - something that's expected in the military - he's going to get Britannia to suddenly change its ways. Sorry, I don't buy it. Unless he is as immortal as C.C., I don't see it working in his lifetime. Let's put it this way: if you were Jewish, would you have joined Hitler's armies? How far do you think you would have gotten?

Not to say I don't expect great things from this character: he has the potential for lots of drama, precisely because of his astonishingly hypocritical stance.

[Plan 36]

The most annoying thing about Suzaku is that everyone in the anime seems to sympathize with his half-assed logic, and doesn't point out the various flaws in his plan (if he has one). The last thing we need is Sunrise turning him into a Kira clone and the show will be complete trash. Ugh!

[Nightengale]

Originally Posted by Plan 36

The most annoying thing about Suzaku is that everyone in the anime seems to sympathize with his half-assed logic, and doesn't point out the various flaws in his plan (if he has one). The last thing we need is Sunrise turning him into a Kira clone and the show will be complete trash. Ugh!

But turning into a Kira clone literally strips Suzaku of his worst traits so far, that is his hypocricy and all talk/no action deeds.

Not that I'm saying it's a good thing for him to be a Kira clone (( not melancholic and vague enough )), but ideally, the worst things about him are hardly the worst things about Kira.

If anything, he needs to be a Griffith clone..Oh wait, that's Lelouch.

[JayF]

[QUOTE=Nanaya;797679]Sorry for the double posts, but I'm only human. It's like one man against the machine here.



While you do provide some good points, some are just unrealistic. To kill off every other royal means that he will be suspected of high treason and his dreams will end there. And Suzaku is trying to make the Britannians accept him as he is, leading to his fellow Numbers being accepted as well.

Also about Germania and Rome: They exist in a world where the Britannian Empire probably has the most powerful military in the world with rapid reaction ability due to ease of transportation. They can nip rapidly massing forces with said capability before those even become a threat. The Romans didn't have that back then. The technological difference is too great. Between that time and this Geass world, and between the Elevens and the Britannians.

And even though the Narita Battle was considered a personal loss by Cornelia, it was a military victory in that the largest forces of the JLF were crushed. We are nowhere near the point where the Imperial Army is under grave threat.



Except the Battle of Narita would be a victory only it it was a war of conquest, which it isn't. Narita was already under Britannian occupation officialy. This is an insurgency despite the pitched battles and in insurgencies the occupying power has to win conviciningly, and having 80% armour losses , approximately 80 Knightmares of the 100 assault team of the vanguard, loss of one division in one enemy trap (not counting civilian and troop casulties), the CO AND colonial administrator under real threat of capture isn't going to be counted as a win in almost all military situations, especially an insurgency.

Throw in the breaking of formation during the retreat to rescue Cornelia and the fact that the insurgency leader again evaded capture and you have a full blown disaster on your hands. Even in a war of conquest this would be a pyrhrric victory at best, in an insurgency this is a disaster.

Sure, the JLF saw the routing of their main base and main army but it was to be expected when an insurgent group comes under heavy assault by the occupying force. For the occupying forces, victory should have been at minimal cost which it was going to be until Zero decided to give them a mud bath and send Kallen ripping up Britannian units.

It was a disaster for the JLF but the Brits paid dearly for the "victory" in which a reble group already nearing it's limit was used very effectively as cannon fodder by the new, real threat which is the Order of the Black Knights to inflict horrendous casualties, come within inches of capturing the colonial admin thus shattering morale among the occupying forces and proving to the Japanese the Brits can be defeated in battle which they were, the resumed occupation of Narita, which shouldn't have been allowed to become JLF influenced anyway.

It was an Order victory and Lulu never cared much for the JLF much anyway (to be honest, neither much of Japan). How many more Naritas can Britaninnia take before it becomes a Ligny (French victory) prelude to Waterloo (Sure you heard of that by now.)

As for bumping off the other royals, Suzaku will obviously have to be in a position where either Euphie or Cornelia is will be supporting him when he through either of them presses the treason charges first. If anyone is able to presses treason against him still, then obviously he hasn't come far enough to be able to enact real change either through Euphie or Corneila who both must die, sooner or later. Especially Cornelia.

Lastly, how can Suzaku ever make Britannians and Numbers equal when the national identity of the Empire is built on difference. For that to happen, the Brit/ Number difference will have to disappear and with it, the Empire. All Numbered areas and the homeland will have to come under ONE nation, without distinction between the areas and ALL considered Britannians. How is that going to happen? The Empire as it is will have to go along with it's old power structure and institutions. Will it cost chaos, probably not it Suzaku can replace them with his own counterparts. Will it be bloody when the "transition" takes place? Considering loss of political power in the Empire often results in the loss of life, limb and liberty I'd say yes it's going to be bloody, only this time the carnage will spread to all parts of the Empire, not just Area 11.

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Santa Claus

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.

This needs to be emphasized. Times change, people don't, and the world of politics in an absolute monarchy with a large noble class is cut-throat. Suzaku may end the rebellion through his piloting skills; he may be a tactical and strategic genius and crush the EU forces at El Alamein or whatever, and they will use him to save their asses as much as they can; but when all is said and done, he will not be able to assume power himself or invoke any sort of meaningful change, as the aristocrats have too much invested in the status quo. It'll be the Earl of Wiltingshire-on-Rexonfordesborough III in his room at night stabbing him in the back, and some minor branch of the le Britannia family assuming the throne (with the understanding that their power depends upon the goodwill of their noble backers, of course; politics is a world full of mutual backscratching) and it'll be back to the status quo. Not to mention his only viable path to a position where he can enact meaningful reform is through either Euphemia or -maybe- Cornelia, if he keeps saving her ass and she gets uncharacteristically grateful, and to place them in power he has to either start killing him some princes or help them win a war of succession, both of which are just as bloody as Zero's path. Zero at least tries to avoid civilian casualties, even if it is just for practical/PR purposes (recall that the landslide was much bigger than he had planned for): in a war of succession or just simple noble infighting civilian casualties are unavoidable, as the youngest child can make a claim.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by atilim

Lelouch won the battle of Narita now mather how you look. De damage to the Oder was little, they lost 3 or 4 Knightmares and thats it. Cornelia lost at least 80% during the operation only to the landslide. SO it is Lelouch victory either way around.

80%? Where'd you get the number? The following episode clearly said that a military victory was achieved by the Empire. The JLF main force, including Toudou's, was destroyed, The Black Knights retreated since they CAN'T win a battle of attrition. We only saw 3 and 4 Knightmares destroyed for the BK, but that doesn't mean they didn't lose more, as well as their infantry.

The landslide also damaged only a probably around 9-10% of Cornelia's forces at maximum if the Imperials swarmed the mountain all round by judging its size and direction.

Also the part of "I'm bigger than yours" as you say is important because we are talking about there way of achiving things. Uptil now you talked about Suzaku and his doing things is better on the whol. But the fact is he isn't doing anything.

What I'm talking about Suzaku is what his goals are, NOT what he has achieved up to now, since that's just unfair. Suzaku's goals take longer to take effect. This "bigger than yours" way of thinking is just a shortsighted way of looking at characters. Just like condemning someone as completely evil or completely good, which is something that I rarely do.

Originally Posted by seraphon

nanaya..... you must really love suzaku no?

No, not really. But I AM tired of people giving the guy flak while I can't even find a single guy sympathizing with someone who does his best not only for Elevens, but also for Britannians, because they are all the same to him: humans.

I m not trying to judge what you said or what the other said.
But ONE thing is totally undeniable: Suzaku cannot change britannia. Even if all the royal familie dies except yuffie. Why you could ask me....

Because Brittania isnt a democracy , not even a monarchy by the feeling cg gives us, but a dictature ruled by the almigthy king and the noble court. You may say that the conquered area can govern themselves and such but it looks to me that the king can do whatever he wants (by assassination if needed) and the nobles can also have some pression on the king (well not on lulu s father coz hes too strong). But yuffie if she is ever to be queen wouldnt use murder or anything of the sort, and thus couldnt control the empire because other people(the britannian nobles) wouldnt hesitate to murder her for the throne. The power struggle in the higher sphere of the britanian empire is a real lion pit and there is no way that an honorary britanian can change that.

Even dictators can rule effectively if they are enlightened. It doesn't matter if it's a democracy or not. Being a democracy doesn't make it's people any better than a centralized monarchy's. When I say that Suzaku proves himself to the Britannian royalty and populace, I mean he proves himself so that he'll gain political allies in his goal of Number advancement in society.

Euphemia isn't possibly the only moderate in the Empire.

Another thing that you cant deny is that it is quite wrong for suzaku to always speak of justice. I m not saying that zero is more in the justice side than suzaku nor that suzaku is a treator. But Britannia had invaded japan for money and thus killed a lot of people , than parked most of the people in ghettos and calling them by a number like animals or objects. Althougth there is a system of honorary britanians, it must be really hard for the japanese to get it, because you must accept to become a dog to the britanians (the hot dog seller WAS a honorary britanian and to work he must endure some humiliation). We must not forget that it has not been a very long time since britania invaded japan so rigth now britannians are still invaders in most japanese views. It is really hard to try to blend in..... ok suzaku is trying to give an example by trying to get the best of the britanian invasion but it is not easy, not everyone can do it. Try to think for a real life exemple in the place of the irakians. Is it easy to be supportive to the americans who invaded their country? (well of course irak is very extreme).
Well back to topic, I wanted to say that terrorrisms in a country that has been invaded is to be expected, it is totally normal. But the army of occupation that figth the terrorrists hardly have justice with them, and thus suzaku that works for such an army doesnt have justice behind him.

Suzaku's sense of justice is different from the army he serves. He is like a sleeper that will change the system from within, rather than by breaking it from without. He has to bide his time before he acts or everything that he sacrificed will be for nothing. Suzaku puts his everything on the line to change the system from the very start. As of now, Lulu hasn't bet anything yet since no one knows that he is actually Zero.

The Iraq war is not really an easy way to get you through this argument. Americans only invaded to defeat Saddam. Not colonization. That's why Americans want to leave as soon as they have rebuilt the Iraqi Army. Also, Baghdad citizens actually welcome the presence of American soldiers because when they're there, less people die. The residents also know that if the Americans leave now, their country will descend to chaos and may be the starting point of a widespread Shiite-Sunni war.

Suzaku allows himself to suffer the indignities of today so that the Numbers of tomorrow will have an equal standing in the Empire in the future WITHOUT the need for any things such as rebellions.

Well I know there migth be holes in my speech, coz it was long and I m too lazy to reread, but I ll gladly develop my point of view to say that it is totally impossible for suzaku to change britannia and that suzaku is a hypocrite if he thinks justice is with him/the britnian army

Impossible is only a word the weak-willed use when things get hard.

Changing Britannia is not impossible if Suzaku can foster trust and respect between Britannians and Numbers. Also, you shouldn't group Suzaku's justice with the justice of the Britannian army, coz' if you do, you will never see what Suzaku is really doing and what he is really sacrificing.

Oh I forgot to say that winning always make you rigth coz its well known that its the victors that make history (and you can even put in place morals that indeed make you the allie of justice).

So if Nazi Germany won the war, they'd be right? Well, that maybe so, but not to me.

Just like the fact that I don't think that what the Britannians are doing is right, I also think that what Lulu is doing isn't right at all. Just because they win doesn't make them right. Historians don't give you your sense of right or wrong. YOU have your sense of right and wrong.

Originally Posted by some dude

I have to say that I hate Suzaku with a passion, for cooperating with the empire that invaded his own country and treat his own people like dog, and for being a hypocrite. I hope that Lelouch or whoever will give him a healthy dose of reality, make him fall like a rock and cry like a little girl (ala Shinn Asuka) eventually. Death is too good for him.

Suzaku is cooperating with his country's occupiers because it's been seven years already since the invasion. He can only see his path as the path with the least needless civilian bloodshed that can be caused by both sides. He never treated other people like dogs so I can't gather where you got that.

Originally Posted by another dude

(1) You are misunderstanding between an "useful tool" and a "respectable human". He can show that he is an "outstanding Honorary Britannian" or whatever, and even if the royalty may "respect" him (not really though, except Euphie, they only feel glad to have such a good dog), he cannot make them listen to him, as:

- Even a prince is nothing, so the words of just a "honor" has no weight. Remember Lulu's mother. She become empress from a commoner, and see what she got. Suzaku is much lower than her in all's view, and will be easily eliminated if they want. Euphie now may also be dead if she raises his idea.

Suzaku's mother was just another wife for the Emperor. She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder, not just because she was a commoner before. Also, Cornelia won't Euphemia die judging from her personality.

Also, please, PLEASE don't talk about differentiating "useful tools" and "respectable humans" because everyone is classified whether they are useful or not and whether their usefulness demands respect and trust.

It's just like Lulu "using" the entire Japan liberation effort for his true goal of destroying the Empire. Now that I think about it, Lelouche really is proving the truth in his father's words right at his banishment.

- Showing that one can be "good" doesn't lead to the change of Britanian's mind about all of the Japanese (the empires will only think: ok, this traitor is useful). You know, a good dog is always a dog, and lower than even a bad person.

Now, now. You're just blanketing ALL Britannians as close-minded people when people like Euphemia, the Student Council, and even Nanaly, exist. Even that old Britannian in the episode 12 meeting seemed like a moderate.

--> He is only know as the Number pilot of Lancelot. Like the Lancelot, he may climb to an important position, but always they use him, not vice versa (maybe yes if he only want sth for himself, and has a brain, here he has no brain and wants a revolution !!)

He is only known as a Number pilot, now. If his climb continues, this argument goes down the drain.

LOOK, Suzaku has sacrificed his pride and his honor to pave a path not only for Elevens, but for all Numbers. His success will make it easier for other Britannians to accept other Numbers. THAT is what he is betting his everything for.

(2) As I've said, his "changing from inside" is unrealistic. But more important than that is what he's doing is not less evil than Zero but he is so shameless to be angry with Zero's every move (to him, Zero shouldn't save the hostages, and let them face the risks to die in his show-off). Moreover, he didn't piss of with the army's massacres at all, and still helping them to kill his ppl

Changing from the inside isn't unrealistic. Not at all. It just takes a great amount of will and determination not to be corrupted by the system one person is entering.

Suzaku has never been directly involved in a fight against civilians. So how can he do anything in a place where he is not involved in. He can't be pissed at what he cannot directly see.

And the battles he fights aren't massacres at all, because he believes, and rightly so, that the people he is fighting are those who still allow chaos to cover the land of Area 11.

And it is this chaos that won't allow peace and progress to occur.


P.S. THIS TIME, FOR CRYING OUT LOUD, PLEASE LET ME FINISH REPLYING TO EVERYONE BEFORE YOU MAKE ANOTHER ARGUMENT. 1 man against 8 to 10 people is difficult to manage.

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

80%? Where'd you get the number? The following episode clearly said that a military victory was achieved by the Empire. The JLF main force, including Toudou's, was destroyed, The Black Knights retreated since they CAN'T win a battle of attrition. We only saw 3 and 4 Knightmares destroyed for the BK, but that doesn't mean they didn't lose more, as well as their infantry.

I believe that the poster you were quoting was referring to the order of battle Cornelia brought with her to Narita; there was an image of a screen where the landslide wiped out all except isolated pockets of the Britannian forces. This, I think, gives the JLF the victory, as when you don't have overwhelming force and you're fighting a mountain that has cannons sticking out of it the result is inevitable. I believe the Britannian forces had to withdraw; that gives the JLF the victory, though I think it's a rather Pyrrhic one.

Now, now. You're just blanketing ALL Britannians as close-minded people when people like Euphemia, the Student Council, and even Nanaly, exist. Even that old Britannian in the episode 12 meeting seemed like a moderate.
.

Of course they exist; even during the era of racist, elitist imperialist policy in Europe and the United States there were people like the abolitionists and the Chartists and all the rest who were open-minded and progressive and led to change. However, you must remember that the political situations in their respective countries allowed for them to take political action; this is not the case in Code Geass, as Britannia is not the liberal, parliamentary United Kingdom that granted suffrage to all (or most) of its (white) subjects but a crazy military dictatorship run by a social darwinist with an awesome wig. It'd be like a Dutchman trying to "change the system from within" during the era of Spanish rule and violently hating and denouncing his countrymen when they declared independence and founded the United Provinces. Ok, obscure example - maybe an Indian trying to rise to prominence during the height of the Victorian era and trying to have Indians enfranchised and integrated into the British political system. The British Raj was much like the political situation in Code Geass, after all.

edit: even better example! a Korean trying to rise to prominence in imperial Japan in an effort to make Koreans the equals of the Japanese in citizenship and power. Though even that's not the greatest example, as I understand that prior to the Bushido revival movement that preceded the militarist government of the 1930s Japan was actually quite liberally democratic, if xenophobic. The post-WWI years were apparently years of increasing liberality. But I'm not an expert or even an amateur enthusiast on that topic, so feel free to correct me.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by Trax

As I pointed out before, I just don't think he really has a good idea of what he's trying to achieve and how he wants to achieve it. His basic plan seems to be playing Brittania lapdog so he can minimize casualties with some sort of belief it will change the way Brittania operates. I seriously wonder if even Suzaku himself knows what he's fighting for, or if he's just running away from his past.

Basically, people have to read Suzaku's lines to be able to grasp what it is he wants. What he wants isn't obvious so people will, in turn, obviously just label him as a lapdog traitor because it's EASIER to do so than to understand him.

My guess is he actually is a traitor (hinted by his induced flashbacks, although not confirmed), and because of that he has sought refuge among the Britannians. He may even have gotten his honorary citizenship based on this. Apart from that, he's still a hypocrite by lamenting victims while conveniently ignoring the actions of the very army he is a part of.

One reason that he joined the army is to minimize the casualties which his side causes. Of course, he may sound like a hypocrite, but he isn't someone who has a Freedom Gundam supporting him with a secret base leisurely roving around the country. He is limited by what he can do. But even, he is still doing something.

I never said they would be killing Britannians; I mentioned specifically that most would just endure it out of selfpreservation. Plus I don't think he's sacrificing much really by being among Britannians since I suspect he is reluctant to face Elevens because of his possible past betrayal.

I don't think you understand what I meant. WOULD they be happier that Britannians die rather than just being people who will work hard and be part of the empire instead?

What I was trying to get out of that is what the Elevens want are better living conditions and treatment, not necessarily independence. If Suzaku is able to change the empire for them, then the problem is solved.

Not sure what the point of this is, it's obvious there are plenty of non-military Britannians and they are sure to have their share of openminded and nonhostile people. It's obvious they need the natives' cooperation for Area 11 to thrive, but that's just being practical and doesn't necessarily mean they think well of the Elevens. Although I'm surprised we haven't seen any of them question their nation's policy of invading and colonizing other countries, props to their country's propoganda I suppose, which probably is partly responsible for most of the image their people have of the countries they invade, resulting in alot of the discrimination.

Being practical makes a person less discriminatory than other people. Being practical means logic comes first before prejudice.

Also, the same phrase can be used against you as well. Just because we've seen Britannian thugs around the settlements, it doesn't necessarily mean that all Britannians in the settlement are like that.

Sure I can. What you're suggesting is a long shot at best, with the current emperor still in place. Even if he would become aware of Suzaku's exploits, that's no guarantee he would acknowledge him, let alone be influenced by him. He might even have purist inclinations and have him demoted or kicked out of the Britannian military. If I were to speculate on what's going to happen in CG, I'd say the emperor will die at some point which might allow Suzaku to make a difference.

If the Emperor truly had Purist inclinations, Honorary Britannians wouldn't have been ever enlisted in the army like Suzaku was. What is clear about the emperor is that he believes that the "strong live and the weak die". If Suzaku is able to show his resolve, even the emperor could change his mind if that philosophy is what he TRULY believes in. Even if the Emperor is a jerk, Suzaku can gain favor from the royalty that is allowing him to climb the ranks.

It IS a longshot, that I do agree with you. But that's the only thing that Suzaku can bet on.

Oh, and if anything makes Suzaku look like a fool it's his own actions and statements. Actually staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly by them, and making hypocritical statements about Zero don't reflect well on himself. Lelouche is no saint, and he does have his own agenda, but at least he doesn't make excuses for himself.

Staying in the army after nearly getting executed unjustly was done for the sake of his fellow Honorary Britannians. Had he not returned, HB's would never have had a second chance in the Empire to be regarded as citizens. THAT is another example of his self-sacrifice.

Hypocritical? Zero also makes hypocritical statements himself, you know? What kind of peaceful world can he achieve by bringing even more discord in the fray. He claims himself an ally of justice, yet he does everything for his own selfish reasons. Selfish enough that he is willing to turn the world upside down for it. He is not the only person who suffered in their world. His sister isn't the only one who suffers in their world. How about the JLF lives he sacrificed like pawns in the battlefield? Don't they have family of their own? How about the Britannian soldiers he kill? They also have family and loved ones. How about the civilians who will undoubtedly get caught in his reckless plans?

Lulu's sense of justice isn't any far worse than Suzaku's if you ask for hypocrisy, and yet it's only one guy who gets the flak.

It's unlikely they'll feel that way any time soon, even with less discrimination. You don't suddenly "forget" you're the victim of a hostile invasion. It would make it easier to bear, but that's a kind of grudge that doesn't die out easily. Ofcourse they don't like the unrest caused by the rebellion either, because of the resulting tension and a chance to get caught in the middle.

Actually, grudges can die easily if you're offered food and bread and a nice home and better living standards. A kind of modified Stockholm syndrome. Most people don't really care about pride. They just want easier lives. If less discrimination occurs, that would really help improve the Elevens' lives. That is what Suzaku is aiming for with his service.

It's not caused by Lelouche, it was already there. Ofcourse his actions don't help it either, but that's another matter. And from the support he's getting it seems that they generally symphatize with his actions. I think it's safe to say they feel like prisoners in their own country because it's being occupied by a hostile military force, the discrimination only reinforces that feeling.

Does it even matter if it was already there? The only course of action is to make the distrust disappear, not whine about it.

Another matter? Are you kidding me? Lelouche's actions make the distrust worse, whereas Suzaku is trying to make Britannians trust Elevens. If Britannian distrust of Elevens decrease, discrimination can be lessened. If the discrimination completely disappears, then the feeling of being prisoners disappears. Logical and simple.

Both sacrifice lives, either directly or indirectly.

I agree. But the problem is, Lulu doesn't get as much flak for his recklessness as Suzaku is for his reluctant obedience. Both cause death and both of them should be seen as two sides of the same coin rather than one side being on the side of good or evil. That is because everyone's sense of justice is different, and inherently, so are their views of what is good and evil.

Is that really Suzaku's goal? He hasn't exactly been clear about what he's trying to achieve.

Well, that's what you'll get for trying to change the system from within: integration. Even though he hasn't been clear, it is up to the viewer to understand him and his point of view. Which is why I think a lot of people just think of Suzaku as some kind of traitor with a warped sense of justice: they don't take the time to understand what makes him tick, because it's easier to just label him as Lulu's enemy.

That's just a convenient excuse they make for themselves. You can be sure they will realize that plenty of people in the ghettos don't want to get involved with the rebellion for fear of retaliation. From a military pov it might still be the best way to deal with the rebels, but they know for a fact that they're killing a fair share of innocent people in the process.

Well, as I said before: collateral damage. Logically speaking, it's the easiest way to fight their war without losing as many of their own troops.

Just like with my example of the Fil-Am war. I really deplored the horrendous acts committed by American troops on my ancestors, but logically speaking, that was the easiest way of dealing with an insurgency. A smart warrior may be lambasted for his brutality but he's just looking for his own.

Originally Posted by Santa Man

Yes, both the Geass ability and Lancelot are plot devices (IMO, obviously.) The difference is in how Lelouche and Suzaku uses them, respectively. Lulu could EASILY have just gotten out of Shinjuku, but he didn't. He chose to stay and fight. He actually used his plot device instead of depending on more, and more, and more. We can argue whether the Guren is a PD as well, too. I'm not going to say he was in the right in everything he's done, because he is obviously a very, very morally grey character.

Well, both Suzaku and Lulu are morally grey characters.

Understand that the Lancelot is Suzaku's PD, as well Euphemia and Cornelia I suppose. He's not in a position to do anything yet. So you can't really blame him. He wasn't given a Geas to make things easier for his climb now, right?

Now let's consider Suzaku. He joins the military. Great. He wants to change Britannia from the inside. Also great. Respectable goal. Purely idiotic means of getting his message across. Before we get to his means, let's examine his actions thus far:

1) BECAUSE Karen & Co. stole C.C. and Lulu happens to get stuck in the whole ensuing mess, Suzie gets a shiny mech. Because of this, he is in effect bringing a gun to a fist fight everytime he waltzed onto the field.
2) BECAUSE Lulu got the Geass ability and committed fratricide, Suz gets public recognition for a crime he didn't commit. Not really a good thing, but it leads into his other "accomplishments."
3) BECAUSE Lulu CHOSE to save him, he gets cleared of all charges.
4) BECAUSE he gets cleared of all charges, he meets Euphie. A royal princess who just so happens to have a military general for an elder sister.
5) BECAUSE Lulu Oranged Jeremiah, Suzaku was able to act the hero and save the day.
6) BECAUSE Zero was such a thorn in Cornelia's side, Suzaku got to play the dashing hero, again. And again. And again.

Now, of all the things he's supposedly accomplished, how many of those things would he have gotten done if Zero wasn't in the picture? I say, not bloody much. He'd likely have died without anyone knowing his name. Would Britannia have recognized his service? Probably not.

Like what the series is showing us, Suzaku's fate is intertwined with Lulu's. I'm not really sure if that should be enough to just wail on the guy. Even if he didn't have Zero to confront, there are other insurgent groups in the area to fight for him. It'd take longer for Suzaku to achieve his goal, but that would also apply for Lulu had the man never gotten his Geass.

Suzaku sure likes to whine about the meaning of justice and all that merry stuff, but the doing seems quite out of his league. Lloyd even takes him to task on the very matter on at least two separate occasions. Even Lulu's dependence on PDs isn't quite this drastic. He does take matters into his own hands whenever possible.

Umm, how many times should Lulu be dead or captured by now if it weren't for his C.C. PD?

However, I'll buy the destiny bit. Perhaps Suzaku was fated for these things. Unlikely to happen in the real world, but perfectly fine within the confines of an animated series. But let us now examine his methods. The Numbers system takes away a nation's cultural identity. A conquered country suddenly becomes little more than a number in Britannia's territories: no culture, no identity, no pride. As someone above this post said, Britannia behaves like a military dictatorship, and strength seems to be valued above all else.

So? If a Number proves himself valuable in a government that values strength above all (even prejudice), then isn't that what exactly what Suzaku's aiming for?

The Numbers system is a very practical and logical way of creating administrative areas where assimilation of peoples into the the empire can take place. People will never be fully assimilated as long as they have their silly culture, identity and pride. Once these things are completely crushed, assimilation is made easier. Another logical way to create a united Imperial front.

Now please tell me how a Number can ever hope to impress his obviously racist superiors (I'm thinking of the Special Ops commander in Episode 1 here.) Even the rank and file seems to have little qualms with killing the elderly, and women and children.

Cornelia is impressed by Suzaku enough to put him in her guard unit. She's way higher in rank than that superior you're talking about, who is already dead by the way.

Also, once an area is designated as a battlefield, everyone on the area becomes a combatant. It doesn't matter if that is an elderly person, woman, or, child. Why would soldiers make themselves any less effective in combat with things like mercy when mercy and kindness got carefree soldiers killed Vietnam and Afghanistan just because their opponents were women and children.

These are your examples of understanding Britannians.
Quote:
Euphemia. The Student Council. They are Britannians.

It just goes to show that acceptance comes. Not suddenly, but it does.
Let me just point out that all of these people are sheltered. Judging from her air-headed behavior during the Purist fracas, Euphemia was pampered and protected from court intrigues by her extremely powerful older sister. As such, she's an idealist: in her opinion, it'd be great if everyone held hands and sang songs. It's perfectly reasonable that she'd be well disposed towards equality for all. Somehow, I doubt the Darwin-loving members of her family think the same way. And they are the ones who can institute change.

Umm... so would that mean that the rest of the Britannians aren't all sheltered?

This is just another blanket approach to label people as evil. Just like how the American WW2 phrase "The only good Jap is a dead Jap." was coined. That is the kind of thinking that Suzaku wants to defeat.

Cornelia isn't the greatest example either: Suzaku saved her life as well as that of her beloved sister. She's biased towards him. How impressed would she have been with Suzaku if he hadn't done those things? Would she have been impressed in his ability to follow orders? No - the woman kills soldiers who can't follow retreat orders, as we've all seen.

Well, the thing is, Suzaku has already gained Cornelia's trust so trying to backtrack is useless argument and even baseless.

Also, if I were in the middle of a battle, I'd shoot soldiers who weren't able to follow orders well. Why the brutal treatment? Because if soldiers don't follow as told, more of Cornelia's troops could've been put in harm's way. It is only logical military thinking. Being in the military isn't a charity organization. You're there to win with as little losses on your side while obliterating the other.

And the student council (and here, I'm guessing you're excluding Nina.) Biggest bunch of fops I've ever seen. Likely to be quite well off if they're attending a prestigious academic institution. Most likely just as sheltered as Euphie. How about the other students at Ashford? You know, the ones that were so excited at looking over pictures of the Shinjuku massacre? The only Britannians that truly accept Elevens as equals despite their upbringing, IMO, are Cecil and maybe Diethard. Two people in a sea of racists. In fact, I'll even toss in the entire Ashford Academy as supporters of equality in all Britannia. That's what...a thousand people? Opposed to the entire Purist faction, and the seemingly ingrained idea of Britannian superiority over inferior 'Numbers.' Suddenly the future looks bleak.

Well, I did say that acceptance comes slowly. That is what Suzaku is trying to fight for. The fight for acceptance and equality in the empire is hard, but is Suzaku giving up? Heck no!

Even Nina seems to have lightened up to Suzaku as the later episodes show, right?

The obvious RL historical parallel with Suzaku that I can think of right now would be Flavius(?) Stilicho of Rome. This dude was half Roman, half barbarian, but because of his efforts the Empire was able to survive for a few more years. He had many reasons to take control himself, yet he didn't. He defended the Empire, and acted the good little Roman well. And in the end, all it took to take him down was a couple of jealous aristocrats. And things just went to hell after he died. For both the Foederati (sp?) and for pure Romans.

Well, Suzaku hasn't been taken down yet so that parallel isn't even parallel yet. If he fails, then you could brand that on him, but as of yet, he hasn't let up for the moment.

In the end, I guess all I have to say regarding Suzaku is his original character concept is truly strange. It's like he thinks that by doing his job - something that's expected in the military - he's going to get Britannia to suddenly change its ways. Sorry, I don't buy it. Unless he is as immortal as C.C., I don't see it working in his lifetime. Let's put it this way: if you were Jewish, would you have joined Hitler's armies? How far do you think you would have gotten?

You may not buy it but that's what the guy believes in. His is the harder path to take and so many people will find it easier to abandon any faith in Suzaku.

Also, there is a distinct difference between Hitler's armies and Britannia: one of them is out to cleanse the world of "subhumans", while one of them is out to conquer the world and subdue its peoples under the rule of one flag by the strong.

Hence, the prospects of making something happen is greater in the Britannian Empire than in Hitler's Reich.

Not to say I don't expect great things from this character: he has the potential for lots of drama, precisely because of his astonishingly hypocritical stance.

Well, Lulu's hypocritical as well as I already explained. It's only Suzaku who gets flakked up.

Originally Posted by two other people with same message

But turning into a Kira clone literally strips Suzaku of his worst traits so far, that is his hypocricy and all talk/no action deeds.

Not that I'm saying it's a good thing for him to be a Kira clone (( not melancholic and vague enough )), but ideally, the worst things about him are hardly the worst things about Kira.

If anything, he needs to be a Griffith clone..Oh wait, that's Lelouch.

The most annoying thing about Suzaku is that everyone in the anime seems to sympathize with his half-assed logic, and doesn't point out the various flaws in his plan (if he has one). The last thing we need is Sunrise turning him into a Kira clone and the show will be complete trash. Ugh!

Umm, Kira is a character I truly hate. He makes conflicts last longer than they should, he doesn't kill when he has to, he steals other people's fiancees, and he's practically invincible.

Suzaku is better off not being Kira. This rebellion would take longer to suppress if he was. And Suzaku wants to end this conflict as quickly as possible to lessen any civilian casualties caused by said conflict.

People can sympathize with Suzaku because his logic isn't half-assed at all. He wants to change the Empire from the inside. Just the opposite of Lulu's logic. Same coin, different sides.

Originally Posted by some other dude

Except the Battle of Narita would be a victory only it it was a war of conquest, which it isn't. Narita was already under Britannian occupation officialy. This is an insurgency despite the pitched battles and in insurgencies the occupying power has to win conviciningly, and having 80% armour losses , approximately 80 Knightmares of the 100 assault team of the vanguard, loss of one division in one enemy trap (not counting civilian and troop casulties), the CO AND colonial administrator under real threat of capture isn't going to be counted as a win in almost all military situations, especially an insurgency.

A military victory is a military victory. Period. Insurgency or not, if the insurgent's military forces are depleted, then what will they fight with?

80% of the vanguard and a division. Which is probably around 15-20% of the entire assault army that attacked Narita, if you take into account the size of the mountain and the sliver of a landslide that occurred. That's just a small sacrifice considering that the major JLF forces where crushed, losing all of Toudou's Burai Kai's along the way. JLF forces scattered and some were captured. Even Lulu got his forces to retreat because he KNEW that they had no chance in a war of attrition against Cornelia's army after it regrouped from the shock of the landslide operation.

That is the beauty of Cornelia's army configuration. It still regrouped and defeated their enemy after being surprised. THAT IS A MILITARY VICTORY. Their casualties were a small price to pay for what they accomplished.

And get this, that's just a single Imperial Army. It probably isn't even Cornelia's entire army that attacked Narita since she'd need to leave troops behind bases and whatnot.

Throw in the breaking of formation during the retreat to rescue Cornelia and the fact that the insurgency leader again evaded capture and you have a full blown disaster on your hands. Even in a war of conquest this would be a pyrhrric victory at best, in an insurgency this is a disaster.

Umm... I explained it up top. Militarily speaking, this wasn't pyrrhic at all. Only Cornelia's pride was beaten, not her army.

Props to Zero for a brilliant attack but even he retreated because he knew that his army would get decimated if they pressed on. It was only because of C.C. that the insurgency leader even escaped.

This is no disaster by any means. Only pessimists will say so, or, people trying to make an argument for Zero's sake when he clearly lost to Cornelia's army by retreating while using JLF soldiers as human shields and pawns in his game of battlefield chess with his half-sister.

Sure, the JLF saw the routing of their main base and main army but it was to be expected when an insurgent group comes under heavy assault by the occupying force. For the occupying forces, victory should have been at minimal cost which it was going to be until Zero decided to give them a mud bath and send Kallen ripping up Britannian units.

It was a minimal cost. 15-20% of a SINGLE Imperial Army for decimating the MAIN forces of the JLF.

It was a disaster for the JLF but the Brits paid dearly for the "victory" in which a reble group already nearing it's limit was used very effectively as cannon fodder by the new, real threat which is the Order of the Black Knights to inflict horrendous casualties, come within inches of capturing the colonial admin thus shattering morale among the occupying forces and proving to the Japanese the Brits can be defeated in battle which they were, the resumed occupation of Narita, which shouldn't have been allowed to become JLF influenced anyway.

The casualties weren't that horrendous from what I explained. The Black Knights most likely lost a lot more troops than what was shown. Only to be expected.

It was an Order victory and Lulu never cared much for the JLF much anyway (to be honest, neither much of Japan). How many more Naritas can Britaninnia take before it becomes a Ligny (French victory) prelude to Waterloo (Sure you heard of that by now.)

I highly doubt that it was an Order military victory. Maybe a moral victory for messing up an otherwise easy fight for Cornelia, but moral victories amount to nothing in terms of result, real world or not.

As for bumping off the other royals, Suzaku will obviously have to be in a position where either Euphie or Cornelia is will be supporting him when he through either of them presses the treason charges first. If anyone is able to presses treason against him still, then obviously he hasn't come far enough to be able to enact real change either through Euphie or Corneila who both must die, sooner or later. Especially Cornelia.

Umm, Suzaku isn't the kind of person who'd just kill needlessly. He'd rather gain favor through service than obedience through a gun.

Basically, Suzaku is fighting the Empire's ideals by being its antithesis, while Lelouch is fighting the Empire's ideals by using the Empire's own ideals against it.

Lastly, how can Suzaku ever make Britannians and Numbers equal when the national identity of the Empire is built on difference. For that to happen, the Brit/ Number difference will have to disappear and with it, the Empire. All Numbered areas and the homeland will have to come under ONE nation, without distinction between the areas and ALL considered Britannians. How is that going to happen? The Empire as it is will have to go along with it's old power structure and institutions. Will it cost chaos, probably not it Suzaku can replace them with his own counterparts. Will it be bloody when the "transition" takes place? Considering loss of political power in the Empire often results in the loss of life, limb and liberty I'd say yes it's going to be bloody, only this time the carnage will spread to all parts of the Empire, not just Area 11.

The Empire is built on difference, but when assimilation is completed, that difference will disappear. That much is true.

But when that happens, why is it exactly that the Empire will disappear?

The Empire will evolve and change for the better, not disappear. That is what Suzaku is aiming for. Just because the Empire becomes less bloodthirsty doesn't mean that it'll suddenly collapse. That's just flawed thinking.

P.S. I'm NOT finished yet. Please let me finish replying.

[Nanaya]

Originally Posted by coefficient

This needs to be emphasized. Times change, people don't, and the world of politics in an absolute monarchy with a large noble class is cut-throat.

Just like in our history that some absolute monarchs were enlightened and had the will to let people govern on their own terms, not all absolute monarchies are as bad as you make them sound.

As times change, people do to. To say that people don't change is a prejudiced idea that allows misunderstanding and killing to occur not only in the Geass world, but also in our real world as well.

Suzaku may end the rebellion through his piloting skills; he may be a tactical and strategic genius and crush the EU forces at El Alamein or whatever, and they will use him to save their asses as much as they can; but when all is said and done, he will not be able to assume power himself or invoke any sort of meaningful change, as the aristocrats have too much invested in the status quo.

Well, that remains to be proven. Not everyone is alike and not everyone's vision is the same. Whether you are aristocrat or commoner, my words hold the same.

It'll be the Earl of Wiltingshire-on-Rexonfordesborough III in his room at night stabbing him in the back, and some minor branch of the le Britannia family assuming the throne (with the understanding that their power depends upon the goodwill of their noble backers, of course; politics is a world full of mutual backscratching) and it'll be back to the status quo.

Nice history lesson, but that is merely speculation as to what will happen.

Just because the path to one's goal seem hard to take and almost closed, does that mean that a person should give up and let the world descend into hell.

I, for one, do not have any love for the defeatist idea that you spurt out.

Not to mention his only viable path to a position where he can enact meaningful reform is through either Euphemia or -maybe- Cornelia, if he keeps saving her ass and she gets uncharacteristically grateful, and to place them in power he has to either start killing him some princes or help them win a war of succession, both of which are just as bloody as Zero's path.

What is it with this killing princes and princesses thing you people keep spouting about? Suzaku's sense of justice won't allow him to do something that Lulu would do.

That's the point of the entire series: Two people wanting to effect change but with two completely opposite and different methods.

It can be obtained from watching the series that the governor-generals hold complete autonomy for administrating their areas by Clovis' approach of allowing zaibatsus to remain. At the very least, Suzaku can influence good government for the Elevens through Euphemia and Cornelia (if he climbs enough) even if the two never become Empresses.

Zero at least tries to avoid civilian casualties, even if it is just for practical/PR purposes (recall that the landslide was much bigger than he had planned for): in a war of succession or just simple noble infighting civilian casualties are unavoidable, as the youngest child can make a claim.

Umm, again... this royal killing thing is more of Lulu's approach, if you ask me. Not Suzaku's.

I believe that the poster you were quoting was referring to the order of battle Cornelia brought with her to Narita; there was an image of a screen where the landslide wiped out all except isolated pockets of the Britannian forces. This, I think, gives the JLF the victory, as when you don't have overwhelming force and you're fighting a mountain that has cannons sticking out of it the result is inevitable. I believe the Britannian forces had to withdraw; that gives the JLF the victory, though I think it's a rather Pyrrhic one.

Did you even see the aerial view of the battlefield? Cornelia surrounded the WHOLE mountain in that to make escape even possible for Order and JLF troopers was contingent on breaking the military formation of Cornelia's cordon.

I guess you haven't watched the aftermath as well, right? The JLF main forces were routed and many were captured. Toudou lost all his Burai Kais. The Order was forced to retreat BECAUSE they couldn't possibly win against Cornelia's army once it regrouped after the initial shock the landslide caused.

Did you even understand what Lulu was aiming for? It wasn't the military annihilation of the Imperial Army because he lacked the capacity to do so. He was aiming for the head of the army, Governor-General Cornelia. If he took Cornelia's head, then I could say that the Order and the JLF would've won due to the chaos Cornelia's demise could cause to her troops.

But she wasn't taken thanks to Suzaku, which ultimately led to the military victory that I explained up a post. It was even bluntly said that they won the battle militarily in the Britannian meeting, while the Kyoto people said that they lost heavily.

Of course they exist; even during the era of racist, elitist imperialist policy in Europe and the United States there were people like the abolitionists and the Chartists and all the rest who were open-minded and progressive and led to change. However, you must remember that the political situations in their respective countries allowed for them to take political action; this is not the case in Code Geass, as Britannia is not the liberal, parliamentary United Kingdom that granted suffrage to all (or most) of its (white) subjects but a crazy military dictatorship run by a social darwinist with an awesome wig. It'd be like a Dutchman trying to "change the system from within" during the era of Spanish rule and violently hating and denouncing his countrymen when they declared independence and founded the United Provinces. Ok, obscure example - maybe an Indian trying to rise to prominence during the height of the Victorian era and trying to have Indians enfranchised and integrated into the British political system. The British Raj was much like the political situation in Code Geass, after all.

edit: even better example! a Korean trying to rise to prominence in imperial Japan in an effort to make Koreans the equals of the Japanese in citizenship and power. Though even that's not the greatest example, as I understand that prior to the Bushido revival movement that preceded the militarist government of the 1930s Japan was actually quite liberally democratic, if xenophobic. The post-WWI years were apparently years of increasing liberality. But I'm not an expert or even an amateur enthusiast on that topic, so feel free to correct me.

This is my counter to a very long history lesson that you gave me.

In their system, noble families and royal successors still exist. If even a people like the Ashfords and Euphemia exist, then the possibility of moderates existing in high positions of said military dictatorship is quite high.

Also, I might add that while it seems that the Emperor has full sovereignty over the Empire, you could obtain from the series itself that each and every area are autonomously controlled and administrated by their respective governor-generals. If change can be achieved for each region slowly while Suzaku keeps proving his worth not only to Cornelia and Euphemia, but to all Britannian royalty, then his dreams of achieving what seemed to be a far off goal isn't as pathetic as people would think.

P.S. I'm finished with my replies. Even added the RECENT reply even after pleading to NOT reply before I was completely finished. Thanks to those who did allow me to finish first.

[ImperialKnight]

Wow just wow, only a few people actually understand the things behind some of the characters.

Let's also not forget that the Lancelot was constructed under the 2nd Imperial Prince. Yet, the Prince ALLOWED a number, whose not even suppose to pilot a KF, to pilot it despite the opposition of most of the Britannian officers. As Euphie's general stated, not even they can shove Suzuka off the board. When Cornelia first arrived she promoted Suzuka to Warrent Officer. And now he stands for another promotion. I would say he is literally a hero for HB's as it shows them that even they can rise to the top in the Britannian Empire. Cornelia stated firmly that she intends to win without numbers but we can see now that has changed. So yes he is changing the system and how people view HB's. Since Euphie shares his views she too will fight for change.

I'm surprised that people critize Suzkua for killing japanese soldiers, who are otherwise enemy combatants, while no one says a peep about Lelouch mudering japanese soldiers (Who otherwise are not his enemy) and killing civilians.

[antheonoileo]

if and when Britannians learn to trust Elevens, then won't their treatment improve?

*Sigh* The problem, from the start, is not “trust”. What the Britannains feel about the Numbers, are what ppl think about creatures, or tool.
Do you trust your dog (that he is loyal) ? Do you trust your machine (that it is working) ? Do you trust your money (that it can buy food) ? Then do you think they are equal to you ?

Suzaku's mother was just another wife for the Emperor. She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder, not just because she was a commoner before. Also, Cornelia won't Euphemia die judging from her personality.

“Not just”, but very important reason. Because she was a commoner, and the family supporting her went down, that she was unpowerful and can be killed. And you see the emperor’s attitude ? Like he knew that before. Suzaku is, in all ways, not as important, not as powerful as the empress. And “She got killed to make it easier for certain people to climb up the succession ladder” so if Suzaku wants a fall down of the structure, hundreds of years developed by Darwin’s crazy fans, what will happen to him ?

Cornelia is not as powerful as you think. Moreover, if she knows about that, what she does first is to prevent Euphie, even by arresting and bringing her to a very far place.

Also, please, PLEASE don't talk about differentiating "useful tools" and "respectable humans" because everyone is classified whether they are useful or not and whether their usefulness demands respect and trust.

Now I know why you support Suzaku. Because you support the Empire’s ideal. I have to declare that not all ppl, except you, the Britainian and a few others, think that “everyone is classified whether they are useful or not”. And besides, I dun think that respect and trust’s role is just to prove usefulness.

To my family and friends, I never consider whether they are useful or not. In my job, I still “use” those people who I don’t love, respect or trust, just because I think they are “useful” in some way. We cooperate because of our benefits, but if they intend to harm me, I won’t be kind to them. In Britanians’ mind, Suzaku is just like, no, even lower than these people to me, so if he goes against their system, *bang bang bang* he is dead

He is only known as a Number pilot, now. If his climb continues, this argument goes down the drain

What can he be beside a Number pilot ? The husband of a princess, whose marriage will stop her from being a candidate to the throne ? He does not have brain/tactics to be a general. The only thing that may work is for him to gain some power by being the husband/very close subordinate of the governer (Euphie), provided that there are no interfere from other nobles. Though this is imposible in real life, it may happen in anime, but just because of Zero’s act.

Changing from the inside isn't unrealistic. Not at all. It just takes a great amount of will and determination not to be corrupted by the system one person is entering.

Suzaku has never been directly involved in a fight against civilians. So how can he do anything in a place where he is not involved in. He can't be pissed at what he cannot directly see.

And the battles he fights aren't massacres at all, because he believes, and rightly so, that the people he is fighting are those who still allow chaos to cover the land of Area 11.

And it is this chaos that won't allow peace and progress to occur.

OK. As you say so…

If you want to change the Nazis from inside, you will joined their army ? As a solder, you will try not to harm civilians, but (1) just killing the French, British, Russian, American… solders, who you think still allow chaos to cover the land of its invaded countries ? and (2) “not directly” but just clear the path for the army to kill civilians as you have defeated all the resisters (if you think they aren’t massacres, remember ep 1, 2, 3)

And you believe you are as white and pure as an angel ? You are not angry at your Nazis and not trying to prevent those massacres at all but you still be able to critize those resistance troops who kill your solders and your lords ? If you attack them, and they have to use some method to counterattack which will involve innocent civilians -yes they will feel regretful, and the victims can critize them- but do you have the right to be angry with them ?

If you think peace is that much important, tell your Gov and ppl to surrender whenever another country wants to invade your own. And if the invaders feel like killing your people, prevent them from resisting. And if they still resist, kill them as they bring chaos to that peaceful colony.

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Nanaya

Just like in our history that some absolute monarchs were enlightened and had the will to let people govern on their own terms, not all absolute monarchies are as bad as you make them sound.

Yes, there were enlightened despots, liberal absolute monarchs who gave their citizens freedoms without having a constitution limit their powers to force them to give those freedoms. This is one of the great benefits of the institution of monarchy, to my way of thinking, though the institution's negatives outweigh the positive. However, the point remains that the ascent of a liberal monarch who is not willing to bump off his (or her) enemies is only possible in a strictly hereditary context. Britannia, as was established early on in the series (the speech episode, I think) is not a strictly hereditary monarchy; rather, the kids battle it out and the strongest takes the throne. In this context it is impossible for a pacifist king or queen like Euphie or converted-Cornelia to ascend to the throne, as they will simply be killed by their less scrupulous siblings. You called this defeatist rhetoric; in this case, by what mechanism does our theoretical queenmaker Suzaku enact reform? The only possible method I can think of (you may be able to think of a different one) is him gaining charisma-Geass and talking all the various petty princelings into believing in his pacifist vision. But as every good political theorist knows, an anarchic regime is only peaceful in the absence of predators. When one shows up, everything goes to hell.

Well, that remains to be proven. Not everyone is alike and not everyone's vision is the same. Whether you are aristocrat or commoner, my words hold the same.


Nice history lesson, but that is merely speculation as to what will happen.

Theoretical history :P It's a truism, though, that those in power generally disapprove of things that will lessen their power, and allowing greater colonial independence will threaten those with interests in the region, economic or political. We haven't seen much of the ruling class of Britannia, but keeping in mind the general philosophy which drives the Empire, I can't imagine their ruling class being a bunch of teddy bears.

Just because the path to one's goal seem hard to take and almost closed, does that mean that a person should give up and let the world descend into hell.

I, for one, do not have any love for the defeatist idea that you spurt out.

The Earl B. Wexfordshire think is just a nod to the general order of business in aristocracies. Anything Suzaku does to shake the status quo will threaten those that benefit from it; those that are idealists may accept their loss of power or even pledge their assistance - several nobles did join up in the French Revolution, after all - but ultimately all it takes is a conspiracy of a few to assassinate him, and given the general tendency of aristocracies to engage in politics-by-knife (see the late Roman Republic for the best examples of this; it is the best image of the aristocratic republic gone bad, though you'd find the same thing going on in Venice or any other number of places) and the general ideology which drives Britannian political legitimacy and conquest (we kill off the weak people so we become stronger) and Suzaku getting bumped off by a couple of jealous nobles is a very likely thing. Plot armour may protect him, but remember that we're talking about the ethics of his position here. It'd be nice if he could sit down with the House of Lords or whatever and talk them into his way of thinking over a cup of tea, but it's not gonna happen if the writers decide not to cloak the guy in plot armour, so to attempt to justify supporting a state that murders innocents intentionally (as opposed to unintentionally in Lulu's case, and even then there were warnings pre-battle I think on the part of the Britannians) is a hypocritical and unethical position.

What is it with this killing princes and princesses thing you people keep spouting about? Suzaku's sense of justice won't allow him to do something that Lulu would do.

My point was that it's the only possible way of putting his people into power, because we both agree that he's never becoming Emperor so the only way for him to effect change is to have influence with the people holding the highest offices. He's not gonna sway Big Daddy Britannia, I think we both agree, and he's won over Euphie and maybe Cornelia in the future. Now, as it stands, there are two possibilities:

1) The state, legally if not ideologically, runs on a strictly hereditary basis; that said, neither Corelia nor Euhpemia are the heirs apparent. We don't know much about Britannian inheritance law, but Cornelia is the second princess, so she's likely not the crown princess. Even if the crown ran under equal primogeniture, which traditionally in England it did not (though women could inherit in the absence of any male contenders) she'd have to somehow deal with the problem of the people ahead of her in the line of succession. Now, she can either talk them into giving up their claim (yeah right) or she can arrange an "accident". Those are the only two options in this case.

2) The second possibility is that Big Daddy Britannia himself names an heir, which I think is altogether more likely as from the way Lulu speaks it seems like it's a tradition for the heirs to infight and for the strongest to claim dominance. Now we all know what drives his thought - equality is evil, go evolution, yadda yadda. In this case Euphie or a converted-Corny haven't a chance in hell of getting named to the throne, unless they can manage to trick the old guy into naming them, which I doubt because he's a smart guy. He's Lulu's dad, after all. In this case the only way to get to power is to cut their way to the top and to play his game.

That's the point of the entire series: Two people wanting to effect change but with two completely opposite and different methods.

It can be obtained from watching the series that the governor-generals hold complete autonomy for administrating their areas by Clovis' approach of allowing zaibatsus to remain. At the very least, Suzaku can influence good government for the Elevens through Euphemia and Cornelia (if he climbs enough) even if the two never become Empresses.

This is a good point, but it seems to me that all Suzaku's and Lulu's thought is focussed not just on Japan but on Britannia as a whole. If gg's translation is accurate to the original in this sense, the first Suzaku-Zero dialogue confirms this; Zero talks in terms of "changing the world" and "Britannia is a rotten country you cannot use" and Suzaku says "I will make Britannia into a good country from inside out". I think both of their objectives are the Empire as a whole.

Umm, again... this royal killing thing is more of Lulu's approach, if you ask me. Not Suzaku's.

See above, I was referring to his possible options other than managing to talk them into it, which is rather unlikely given what we've seen so far. I guess he could pull a Nanoha and use his devilish tools to make them listen (nothing says love and friendship like a magical nuke to the face, and hey, he could even be the White Devil) but given the tone of the series i doubt it :P

Did you even see the aerial view of the battlefield? Cornelia surrounded the WHOLE mountain in that to make escape even possible for Order and JLF troopers was contingent on breaking the military formation of Cornelia's cordon.

I guess you haven't watched the aftermath as well, right? The JLF main forces were routed and many were captured. Toudou lost all his Burai Kais. The Order was forced to retreat BECAUSE they couldn't possibly win against Cornelia's army once it regrouped after the initial shock the landslide caused.

Did you even understand what Lulu was aiming for? It wasn't the military annihilation of the Imperial Army because he lacked the capacity to do so. He was aiming for the head of the army, Governor-General Cornelia. If he took Cornelia's head, then I could say that the Order and the JLF would've won due to the chaos Cornelia's demise could cause to her troops.

But she wasn't taken thanks to Suzaku, which ultimately led to the military victory that I explained up a post. It was even bluntly said that they won the battle militarily in the Britannian meeting, while the Kyoto people said that they lost heavily.

I see what you mean here; I didn't pay close enough attention to the screen I think. I'd estimate their losses at 25% or so upon review.

This is my counter to a very long history lesson that you gave me.

In their system, noble families and royal successors still exist. If even a people like the Ashfords and Euphemia exist, then the possibility of moderates existing in high positions of said military dictatorship is quite high.

Also, I might add that while it seems that the Emperor has full sovereignty over the Empire, you could obtain from the series itself that each and every area are autonomously controlled and administrated by their respective governor-generals. If change can be achieved for each region slowly while Suzaku keeps proving his worth not only to Cornelia and Euphemia, but to all Britannian royalty, then his dreams of achieving what seemed to be a far off goal isn't as pathetic as people would think.

P.S. I'm finished with my replies. Even added the RECENT reply even after pleading to NOT reply before I was completely finished. Thanks to those who did allow me to finish first.

This would only work if people like Cornelia and Euphemia, assuming Cornelia is actually warming to Suzaku (which I think she is) are in the majority. Of the royals we've seen so far, we have two assholes, one who's actually quite like Lulu so who I classify as marginally evil/probably good at heart and one Lacus Clyne. We have the 2nd Prince Schneizel yet to show, so he's an unknown quantity. The general character of the royals, then, is an unknown. However, recall the reaction of the aristocrats in the Imperial court when chibi-Lulu went storming up to confront his father: they realized he had lost all position, that he had lost all chance of significance, and said words to that effect (i don't actually have the episode on hand so I can't pull up the specific dialogue but it was in that general direction). Now, if this were a "proper" family, the death of the mother would not mean so very much; however, the loss of his power means someone was there to usurp it. Now that Lulu no longer has the Ashford/Lamperouge household to be his backing, he can no longer participate in the cut-throat court. This, of course, is speculation, but I think it's damn solid speculation based on what we've seen so far :P

[Selic]

The main reason people don't say much about Lelouch killing people is because he doesn't deny it. Suzaku, on the other hand, denounces injustice yet goes around killing people who probably have families and loved ones, though certainly less than Lelouch so far, but his attitude is certainly enough to piss a lot of other people off.

[coefficient]

Originally Posted by Selic

The main reason people don't say much about Lelouch killing people is because he doesn't deny it. Suzaku, on the other hand, denounces injustice yet goes around killing people who probably have families and loved ones, though certainly less than Lelouch so far, but his attitude is certainly enough to piss a lot of other people off.

It would be more tolerable if he didn't actively aid in the oppression of the Numbers and, indeed, in many cases their actual murder. Remember that in the first great battle he fought in he actively aided the forces liquidating the Shinjuku ghetto. If his plan were workable it -might- be passable (I don't think so, others might argue otherwise); but since his plan is quite unfeasible given that he has managed to convert one person who might be in power some day and possibly one other person who really doesn't give a damn about killing civilians his actions become unjustifiable and worthy of derision.