Ichigo and Rukia? or Ichigo and Orihime?

[sorbet]

Asam: I don't mean to offend you but can you use English when you're posting? It's very hard to read (forget understand) your post. I'm pretty sure others feel the same.

And what is the difference in these words?

Nakama = friend or friends,

shin'yuu = buddy

It literally is the difference between calling someone friend and someone buddy?

When They mention Orihime as Ichigo's love interest, then come back and argue.

And god, you can try to make Rukia Ichigo's nakama all you want and no one cares. They are nakama, all of them. Even Orihime who Ichigo has decleared it out loud as his 'nakama'.

Oh and in ch 249 when Ulq annouced to Orihime that her 'nakama' are here. Did you remember who did Orihime thought of? It was Ichigo.

So from your logic, Orihime accepted Ichigo as her nakama. Here goes your dream of they're something more.

[Sinta]

Originally Posted by Lucifer-Angel

Please calm down. Take a deep breath, again, and again, until you are rested.

I don't know why you keep saying that. I'm not upset. You see to think you have a greater effect on me then you do we are interacting no problem. I'm fine really no need to worry.

You spent a lot of spaces denying what you did, while nobody is accusing you of anything at all. This is how it is pointless to, well, direct you elsewhere because you get off-topic, paranoid, then accuse people of things which you commit yourself. Now, here's for civilization.

I'm sorry i guess I'm not catching it here. Yours are the posts that range all over the place not mine. We go from having a discussion of status at a certain point in the manga to you talking about how love shouldn't be defined. How am I the one that is getting off topic? Just because I try to answer what you bring up doesn't mean i am the one that gets off topic. Maybe you need to reread our discussion.

It is funny how you accuse me of going off topic and yet the post of mine you quoted had everything you said about you comparing the two girls. You see, you point out something, i address it, you get angry and accuse me for doing something which you asked, then go back and do it in your post. See, you spoke of worth, I spoke of worth not being a key importance and told you why then you spoke on..Ever heard of repeated offences?

You go off topic and answer arguments that I have never made. At what time were you and I discussing love or even relationship potential early in our discussion? We weren't. You bring those up in your post and I make reference how they are off topic and then answer. One moment you are talking about status with me, the next you are saying that inoue wasn't a lessor women for being jealous or she didn't know about Ichigo's hollow, all of which weren't relevant to our discussion of status or worth. Again I don't think I'm the one to blame here.

I spoke of status, status and being "worthy" are not the same thing. You implied I thought or argued inoue wasn't worthy of Ichigo did you not? Or did I misinterpret that? I would also continue to maintain at that point in the manga status or worth to Ichigo was important understanding the flow of the manga as Inoue deemed it was.

I would also ask what points you have addressed? The only thing you have said is that INoue doesn't have to be "equal" to rukia? And the only argument you provide is of possibility. How is that addressing the actual argument?

assuming one character has equal status with another character when there is nothing to base it on seems silly to me.

Yes, Sinta, your sentence here is an implication that to equal status is important, and yes, to address status is to address worth.

I'm sorry that my post were made in a way that you missed my point; but i was indeed addressing you're about making equality in status. I said that it wasn't an important criteria.

Just saying it isn't important criteria doesn't tell me anything. Why isn't it important criteria? Because he could take it another direction? Saying something could happen seems like a poor way to make an argument to me.

While we are on the subject I think its important to make a point. I think the main reason that the equality discussion comes up as its a good way to get a handle on the characters interactions and dynamics. I also think its important as its inoue that is struggling with her place in ichigo's heart and her jealously of Rukia's worth to Ichigo. Isn't this why shes comforted when Rangiku says that she is also needed by ichigo? Why would Inoue not harbor hope but jealously if she understood that Rukia's and ichigo's relationship dynamic didn't affect her? Especially considering that she has gotten closer to Ichigo. Didn't she have reason to be happy? Didn't he say he would protect her? Why wasn't she happy about that? I would also just like to interject here that for someone that doesn't need to be on equal status or compare to rukia, inoue seems to have a big problem with her current relationship status with ichigo, and as far as I can see Rukia seem to be a big part of that.

Mind you we are talking about that point in the manga; not the manga as a whole.

Why should you define what is love in the first place? You were purposely ignoring the arguments on how some are not in the belief that the relationship of Ichigo and Rukia meant that they are in love - and I humbly try to tell you that we are not in the same perimeter simply because we are not conforming to what you defined as love, namely IchiRuki. Now, even the scientist who are constantly studying human are not so sure on how two people could fall in love, why should be undermine them and say that we know what love is.

To have a debate on something is try to come to a common ground; saying that you disagreed with my definition of is love is one thing. (Mind you I never gave you a definition of love, as far as I can tell I don't think I have argue exactly why i think they are in love) You say they are not in love or that my definition doesn't encompass other people's opinion but then you refuse to define love and expound on yours or others opinions. You also ignore the TONS of other people that have similar opinions to me. Moving with that thought, How do you know if you aren't in love if you aren't willing to define it? Language and symbols are the way that humans are able to understand and communicate, would you limit that? How do you take anything out of the story if you don't apply your understanding to it? You have formed opinions that is obvious but how do you do that if you don't recognize actions and place meaning to those actions?
How can there a story for you at all with that mind set?

Ultimately, You simply saying they aren't in love does nothing; thats why a definition is important. If you are of a different opinion and think they are not in love that is ok by me, but here has to be reason you don't think they are not in love. What are those reasons?

It comes down to this,
I say they are in love and i give reasons as to why.
You disagree but can't go further as your own dogma won't allow you to. How does that turn into a debate when one side can't provide any analysis or opinions?

I wouldn't be as arrogant as to define what love is - it is definitely not our job. However, many people will agree that love in Bleach definitely not defined as IchiRuki.

You aren't willing to define love but you are wiling to back a pairing that is suppose to be based on love? How is that not a contradiction? You can't get any farther then you were if you aren't willing to make some assumptions about human behavior and define the story through your own understanding. The writer does, he has to or he wouldn't be able to write a story.

It isn't arrogant to define something or place labels on actions. People have to do this, that is how we communicate. If I am to make my point and argue my case then it is my job using evidence, analysis and theories to do so. I don't make claims without at least trying to back things up. That isn't how I operate and what about those people who disagree with me? Are they being arrogant in seeing love in another light? How are they to understand the manga if we can't apply our understanding to some of its key concepts. Thoughts?

You mentioned the uncertainty of the manga's direction - exactly why we cannot be making claims that Ichigo and Rukia are in love with one another, and Ichigo wouldn't fall in love with Orihime. Funny you should spoke on opportunities to be proven wrong when you are determined on not believing that IchiHime happening.

Most of us discuss this in the realm of possibility. I though that was given. We can't say for sure either way. And what was I proven wrong on? I wasn't aware that you had an argument outside the abstract let alone real evidence to back any real position. The most I have seen you say is that ichigo and rukia aren't in love but you don't actual give me an analysis as to why.

Thanks for realizing that Ichigo and Orihime needed not to be equal; but your credibility spoke for itself in the second part. After a rational first part, you said that close relationship in Ichigo-Rukia relationship meant that they will likely fall in love.

Thats where you are wrong, I said that a close relationship, or their relationship dynamic, meant that they would be the most likely coupling not they would hook up without a doubt. Again probability -- probability doesn't translate to certainty.

Ever heard of love at first sight?

Of course, but ichigo and inoue have seen each other many times. Its hard to argue love at first sight when you have known each for as long as they have so I'm not sure where you are going with this.

My point is that bonds and love may be related, but not necessarily interlinked. You mention that Ichigo and Rukia have a great bond, true. However, what is the basis to mention that Ichigo and Orihime do not share a great bond too? You are again, doing what you denied, measuring up every relationship to Ichigo-Rukia bond. Thus, why would feelings not surface even if they do not share the same bond as Ichigo and Rukia. There are many ways in which you probably had insulted Kubo-sensei's credibility just by saying that IchiRuki meant love, and this is one instance. There are many types of relationship, and to say that Kubo-sensei is completely incapable of exploring someway other than IchiRuki is not a good thing to say about his calibre.

How do you know bonds and love may or may not be related, or necessarily interliked? You refuse to define love and deem it arrogant to do so. if you refuse to try and understand love then bonds may the most important thing on the earth but you wouldn't know and it shouldn't matter to you anyway.

However, what is the basis to mention that Ichigo and Orihime do not share a great bond too?

I can say without comparing Ichigo and inoue to ichigo and rukia very easily that they don't have a great bond. But I can only do that by examining their relationship, I see no special backstory that shows trust, romantic love (in any definition) and or overwhelming concern. I don't see ichigo changing or adapting to inoue. I don't Ichigo becoming more docile or awaking up from a funk because of her. I don't see him blushing, thinking about her, talking about her in a romantic way and much more. Basically I see nothing that would condone saying that Inoue is special to Ichigo. Now lets make a distinction. I do think they have a bond of friendship. They are friends, but there isn't indictation to the strength or complexity of hat friendship. I see Inoue the same as Chad, Ishida and renji. He gives her the same consideration he gives them. Simply put, ichigo doesn't act like someone that has feelings for Inoue. YOu say why would feelings not surface if Ichigo and inoue are different from ichigo and Rukia, I say why would feelings surface when there is no reason to justify them? If Ichigo doesn't act like he has feelings for inoue, then what reason do we have to believe that he does?

My turn, do Ichigo and Inoue have a strong bond? If so where does that come from and what are the interactions that say so?

Oh brother, now I have insulted Kubo have I? I never said he couldn't explore another way. You are speculating to what he could doesn't make it likely. I look at what's in front of me and make guesses upon that information. I don't think that's an insult to kubo. If Kubo wants Inoue and ichigo to happen, it will happen same with ichigo and Rukia, all we can do is take the information in front of us and do the best we can. I don't see how thats an insult. And in the course of that information if I compare the relative bonds between ichigo and Rukia, and Ichigo and Inoue then i don't see a problem with that. Often people can only see the true nature of certain dynamics through comparison They aren't mutually dependent so I don't think "anti" arguments well work, but it makes sense to me that if ichigo and rukia have the stronger relationship, constantly evolve and do things that I recognize as love that they would be the most likely. HOWEVER, if you want look at the relationship without comparing them thats ok with me. Explain the ins and out of the inoue ichigo relationship without bring up rukia.

I think a much greater insult to kubo's work would be to imply that he will give us a romantic relationship without developing it on both sides. He has spent years developing Ichigo and Rukia's relationship and Inoue's one sided feelings. It would cheapen all that work just make something happen without developing it and expressing the reasons for it.

Likewise, let me say that close bonds between two person (regardless of gender) is not an indication of instant romance defined; to which the same way that apparent unfamiliarity does not spell and definite impossibility of romance. See why you impose your own definition of love again and again?

To which asked on how could Ichigo shown interest in Orihime when he had thus far shown none, I believe that many could answer you better; or you may just read the HM arc again. I am just a non-believer in IchiRuki ever happening, but that doesn't mean I'm talking on IchiHime happening - again, you forget that not everybody thinks that romance will prevail at all.

There you go again. No one said that a close bond is indictative of instant romance. You keep speaking in absolutes when i don't believe I ever stated to you that this is a sure thing. I go back to what I said about probability. We are talking about probability. Anything is possible as long as the manga isn't over, but now what reasons do i have to believe that Inoue and ichigo are likely when he has made very few strides towards her?

You can believe in whatever you want, so can the others who read the manga, that is your interpretation and right as an individual. It doesn't make you right. I make arguments on the percived evidence and try to back up my opinion, thats all. I think I'm right (just like everyone else in this place including you), and you have given me no argument that makes me want to reconsider.

So you are a non-believer in Ichigo/Rukia huh? Finally we are getting somewhere. Why? There has to be a reason right? Or is that another thing we can't define?

Since when do people need a reason to fall in love? Since you are obviously lagging behind, try reading chapter 2-7, chapters 192-196, and the entire HM arc again. You are obviously not familiar with the story other than Ichigo-Rukia relationship.

So people fall in love for no reason? If you go ask someone why they love someone else they will say I don't know? Sorry, I can't see that happening in most cases. People fall in love for reasons, it may be small reasons but love isn't born out of nowhere. Sometimes its hard to recognize those feelings but people don't just say they are in love. Whether its a personality, a gesture, or something deeper love is born from interactions and those interactions provide reasons. I'm sure some of the literature you mentioned discussed that somewhere.

I really don't even know why you would bring this up in a manga context? Do many manga make people fall in love with showing us why? (Especially in a manga like this?)

I see the story quite well and i don't see anything in those chapters to say Ichigo and Inoue are in love or even have a foundation for future love. I also wonder why you can say that they are in love or have a foundation for love considering you won't define it.

If any, most here will ask on why don't you stipulate the most likely outcome of the growing affection between Ichigo and Orihime?

Because as far as i can see there isn't a growing affection between Inoue and ichigo, I see inoue feelings for ichigo growing thats all. As far as I know love takes two people. I don't see anything in their relationship potential? After 300 chapters he still doesn't treat her as anything special. True, i am using my definition and understanding again, but if that is wrong give me another definition and show its wrong.

Ohh, you have not read the pilot chapter.

Ooh, there wasn't romance in SS arc, and it didn't end in "I love you Rukia" and so by your logic, it never will happen.

The pliot is just that, pliot and he obviously didn't go in that direction as our story is totally different. He must have thought poorly of it. Doesn't bode well for evidence does it.

Wait, how do you know there wasn't any romance in SS arc, is that something we are allowed to define or is it the same as love?

Was the ss arc the end of the manga? How does that eliminate Ichigo and rukia by my logic? They are still the main female and male characters, kubo said so himself, that hasn't changed because inoue is finally getting some of the lime light. Oh and it doesn't have to end with I love you. I thought I made it very clear that actions speak louder then words. He doesn't have to say it with his words. His actions speak for themselves. (Don't get it twisted words are important as well)

Not addressed to me but hey.

Take a look at these:
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/238/19/

Preferably the entire chapter. Then you tell us that he wasn't anxious. The accusations of "not reading the manga" seemed to go back to you.

We were talking about despair were we not? Is this another one of those things that we are allowed to define? Does he state that he's in despair? I don't think he does. How do you know what that picture actually means? Or the actual reasons for it. I think its looks sad/upset, but who says that Inoue's is the soul reason for that anyway? Maybe it was because he was abandon by SS and Rukia was taken back? But even if it was despair I don't think Ichigo's was more passionate in saving inoue. That was the argument he was making was it not?

Do you see the common theme here? To say that you can infer and define one emotion based on action, but not another is the worst form of hypocrisy. So which is it? We can define and deduce despair but not love? What about romance? Is romance one of those things you can define? You mentioned that as well did you not? Can we deduce emotion based on action, words and context or not? Because if we can't that picture should mean nothing to you.

Oh, so you are having trouble conversing with me? I thought we are just having a healthy disagreement, and thought that it wouldn't make us mortal enemies, but hey, looked like I made a mistake.

Where did i say that I had trouble conversing with you? He said I was doing something when I didn't. I don't think we are mortal enemies at all. On the contrary I am enjoying our exchange very much, even if I find some of your views a little strange. As long as we remain civil I don't see any reason not to continue. (though granted I don't think we are going to get anywhere; i think we think just a bit too different) I also think I may need to slow don't as the post are getting long.

Asam or manfan or whatever it is you are called. You just called me eloquent. first an elite, now eloquent. I will take that as a compliment coming from you, but when it comes to your post aren't you violating our rule. I ignore you and you ignore me? Come now, I think it was much better that way. I don't answer your posts, you know that. We can't even agree on the suitability of evidence how could we actually debate? Your post is the perfect example, Asam how do you know what Kubo is telling them to write? How do you know there isn't another reason for putting that there? Kubo had a lot to do with both movies does that mean that the stuff in those can be taken as cannon as well? The problem is you only want to use non-cannon material when it works in your favor. I don't play that game especially with you. You and I have tried to debate before and always ends up with us arguing. So no, Feel free to join the discussion here, I don't have a problem with it. But don't expect me to answer you again.

Edit; And it would seem that the point you made wasn't actual correct to begin with. Funny stuff.

[HaNa-san]

Originally Posted by corporeality

Thank for pointing that out. While I do remember the scene, I was focusing more on the verbatim saying of "changed the world," which only Orihime voiced, so I neglected to included that.

Are you sure that ichigo didn't mention that ? then look at this link..

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/155/16/

I like ichigo's expression on these pages, he looked so determined and passionate

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/14/

I missed these expressions since hm arc T^T

[asam_laksa]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Asam or manfan or whatever it is you are called. You just called me eloquent. first an elite, now eloquent. I will take that as a compliment coming from you, but when it comes to your post aren't you violating our rule. I ignore you and you ignore me? Come now, I think it was much better that way. I don't answer your posts, you know that. We can't even agree on the suitability of evidence how could we actually debate? Your post is the perfect example, Asam how do you know what Kubo is telling them to write? How do you know there isn't another reason for putting that there? Kubo had a lot to do with both movies does that mean that the stuff in those can be taken as cannon as well? The problem is you only want to use non-cannon material when it works in your favor. I don't play that game especially with you. You and I have tried to debate before and always ends up with us arguing. So no, Feel free to join the discussion here, I don't have a problem with it. But don't expect me to answer you again.

I wasn't referring to you. I was referring to ShuMei's ones I don't know why......I like her style of writing, I actually understood what she was saying in regards to which girl is better and her contents which are basically crap to me, because in my opinion(yes, it's my opinion, feel free to agree/disagree)......Kubo Tite loves both of the girls, Orihime and Rukia, he's not going to make one girl goddess, and the other a slut, just so that the brawn, only brawns, no brain orange-haired punk gets the goddess at the end of the day.

It's alright if you think that my posts are useless in compared to yours, therefore you refuse to answer my question(eventhough when I bring in manga referrence).

At least I use Bleach materials, regardless of whether it is cannon or non-cannon, unlike you who had to depend on other non-Bleach mangas/animes that totally have absolutely no connection with Kubo Tite at all, to support IchiKiai pairing.....for instance, 'Air Gear, Tenjiho Tenge, Inuyasha, Full Metal Panic' with the assumption that Kubo Tite copies them as template for 'love triangle'.

On the other hand, I do recall from other IchiHime fans, that others IchiKiai fans used 'non-cannon Bleach materials' also to support IchiKiai fans.....like pair figurines, online fans' favourite pairing votes, mugs, wall-clocks, stickers, etc, etc.

How come they are allowed to do so, but I am not?

Originally Posted by sorbet

Asam: I don't mean to offend you but can you use English when you're posting? It's very hard to read (forget understand) your post. I'm pretty sure others feel the same.

And what is the difference in these words?

Nakama = friend or friends,

shin'yuu = buddy

It literally is the difference between calling someone friend and someone buddy?

When They mention Orihime as Ichigo's love interest, then come back and argue.

And god, you can try to make Rukia Ichigo's nakama all you want and no one cares. They are nakama, all of them. Even Orihime who Ichigo has decleared it out loud as his 'nakama'.

Oh and in ch 249 when Ulq annouced to Orihime that her 'nakama' are here. Did you remember who did Orihime thought of? It was Ichigo.

So from your logic, Orihime accepted Ichigo as her nakama. Here goes your dream of they're something more.

You cannot understand my English? Even though I write them in short one line sentence, not like others who writes lengthy essays that beat around the bush?

I like to be precise and short; as there are many others who don't have patience or time to read long essays, just like me.

PS: I think Sorbet....yours are really a little bit twirling So if you don't mind, I'll 'select certain parts and deal from there'.

And what is the difference in these words?

Nakama = friend or friends,

shin'yuu = buddy

It literally is the difference between calling someone friend and someone buddy?

Why do I bring up then this 'shinyuu' and 'nakama' issue in?
Easy, because a lot IchiKiai fans insist that Ichigo and Orihime's relationship are ssssooooo nnnooottt close. Therefore I'm just showing them it is not so as they (IchiKiai fans) think.

According to Bleach Heat Soul 5, Orihime is Ichigo's shinyuu, not just nakama..... she is Ichigo's shinyuu. The only other person that gets the title as Orihime's shinyuu....at the beginning is Arisawa Tatsuki. And we know how close Orihime and Tatsuki is.

It's up to you guys, IchiKiai fans whether you want to accept (not believe) that Ichigo and Orihime's relationship are close or not.


Of course, I agree with the other people who said just because your relationship with the other are very, very, very close, doesn't mean there's going to be romance birthed out of it.

Or else, TatsukixOrihime and ChadxIchigo would have been a canon pairing long, long time ago.

When They mention Orihime as Ichigo's love interest, then come back and argue.

And god, you can try to make Rukia Ichigo's nakama all you want and no one cares. They are nakama, all of them. Even Orihime who Ichigo has decleared it out loud as his 'nakama'.

Oh and in ch 249 when Ulq annouced to Orihime that her 'nakama' are here. Did you remember who did Orihime thought of? It was Ichigo.

So from your logic, Orihime accepted Ichigo as her nakama. Here goes your dream of they're something more

I don't ship IchiHime pairing that much as others. Therefore, I like the idea that Orihime accepting/treating Ichigo as her 'nakama' but not the other way around.

You don't understand what I'm trying to say in my previous post...... that Ichigo treats Orihime as his shinyuu, and not the other way around. My post focuses on Ichigo's feelings, not Orihime's feelings.

Though, I wouldn't want to miss the bolded part, even though it has nothing to do with my previous part.

Let's draw a parallel here, Orihime's rescue arc and Rukia's rescue arc. When Ulquiorra mentioned to Orihime that her 'nakama' were here, and the first person Orihime thought was Ichigo, (THANK YOU, sorbet) right, just as you said.

Bear with me.....

This is the infamous chapter, where people interprete that just because Ichigo is being shown last, and just because in the anime, they had Ichigo's glorious moments....Ichigo is being shown as very, very important person to Rukia.

Spoiler for scanlated page:

In here, the word 'friends' that Rukia used as in 'my friends would be hurt in the process' is nakama or 仲間. You can see this word being used twice, in the fourth and the fifth panel.

Spoiler for RAWs:

Fourth panel, the one that has Rukia and Renji in it.....it was picked on the time when Renji told Rukia that a group of troublemakers, humans barged in, and a shinigami with orange hair and a big sword had been seen with them.
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/79/06/

Like Ulquiorra who told Orihime about their 'nakama' who came to rescue her, Renji too said a group of 'trouble makers' had come. However, unlike Ulquiorra, Renji specifically said, an orange-haired shinigami had come.

This is basically Rukia's thoughts, not speech. There isn't any pretension in her speech and behaviour, you cannot twist and turn for the sake of your arguement. Rukia reminisced about her past, the time when she was incarcerated.....the time when Renji went to her and told her specifically an orange-haired shinigami came. At that time, Rukia didn't know anyone else, other than the orange-haired shinigami who was going to rescue Rukia from incarceration.

Put two and two together........chapter 269, Rukia's dying thoughts(emphasized because when dying, you don't usually lie)......'nakama', reminisced the past, the time when she was incarcerated, the time Renji told her....only Ichigo was being mentioned.......
Ichigo == is just one of Rukia's nakama, even from chapter 79.

That's my conclusion, feel free to debate with me in here....

Together with my previous post, I showed.....
Rukia, to Ichigo .....is a nakama.

Now, in this post, I showed.....
Ichigo, to Rukia.....is a nakama



But don't worry, according to you all, Orihime, to Ichigo.....is a nakama, also right?

And according to sorbet, Ichigo, to Orihime.....is a nakama, also. (Thank you, sorbet)

Originally Posted by King87

I am new to this so stay with me a little bit. 1st of all I see this topic is causing malice in some people and I will like to say its not that serious. Moving on! I don't know who Ichigo will end up, none of us knows, so I can not get mad at others opinions about the storyline. I'm confused. In episode 17 Urahara states "if you disire with all your heart to save rukia....The power of love is greater than steel." Later in that coversation they show rukia walking away and ichigo next statement is"I felt like....the rain had stopped. It gets confusing when Ganju ask him if rukia is important to him and he says no. After that and the rest of the ss arc ichigo kept repeating how he owed her and nothing more. In episode 16 rukia states feelings which will become shackles....feelings of closeness....stated next by "me and ichigo are just friends."In episode 30 rukia goes into further details of how close she felt ichigo and herself was by stating how ichigo was someone she could trust"completely". This still does not make more than friends tho.In episodes 8 and 9 when the shinigami came to see what was up with rukia, he was going to go back to soul society saying that " I ain't crazy enough to break up a couple and...rukia has reached that age" she tells him not too say that. The interesting thing was she did not tell him what he was suggesting was wrong. Still it is no evidence for a relationship greater than friendship between them. Many people outside of them too think they are a couple in the 1st sixty something episodes of bleach. Rukia once denied it and Ichigo states" If I care what people said I would have dyed my hair black." With Orihime and ichigo the relationship has grown but there is no dialogue between them or speculators to suggest anything more. What I mean by that is there is no one in the bleach community who look at them two and say what they might think between Ichigo and rukia. Again I am not suggesting one over the other, this is just the facts. In my opinion both ichigo and rukia, ichigo and orihime has had moments who no words were said but you felt more than friendship. So even though I have a favorite I would like to see, there is no evidence for either romance right now.sorry guys.

Too many points you put up, I'll only tackle the bolded ones.....the one where Urahara said "if you disire with all your heart to save rukia....The power of love is greater than steel."
http://manga.bleachexile.com/bleach-...7-page-18.html

It was a mistranslation.

The kanji that was there in the original manga RAW was '想', which people can translate it as 'love', depending on the furigana that comes after it.

想 + い　＝　想い　means 'thought, mind, heart, feelings, emotion, sentiment'
http://spencer.blackmarket.net/dic_w...l.asp?id=99307

想　＋　う　＝　想う　 means 'to think or to feel'
http://spencer.blackmarket.net/dic_w...l.asp?id=72510

The word love that some translators (not all translators) translated into.....as in the word 'power of love' was the word '想い', omoi

Spoiler for original raws:

However, in actual fact, in the manga, we only have.....in Urahara's words as 想う....... as in 想う力は鉄より強い.....meaning, 'The power of thoughts is stronger than steel'.

No 想い, no feelings, no love.

Just 想う, as in the . It's not 'the power of love' that Urahara was talking about, just an error on the translators' part.


However....... the word 想い(feelings, love) appeared again, this time in the sidetext portion....

Spoiler for RAWs:

「死神の正義」＿＿＿...それは、分かっている。　しかし、“心”は、“想い”は、強く 抗う!!
Shinigami justice____.....I know it. But, the heart (my heart), the feelings,想い (my feelings) are strongly against it.


IchiHime fans can use the word 'love' as the meaning of 想い to prove Ichigo---->love--->Orihime, if they don't like the word 'feelings'......similar to Urahara's words.


But I don't think it makes any difference, since the word 'heart' is also there, emphasizing (since IchiKiais fans love squeeing and quoting at Shiba Kaien's words 'When two people interacts, hearts are born')

[BleachOD]

Ichigo was the most important of all her Nakama...thats why he had his own panel...When she thought she was toast in SS...She thought of Renji as a child her brother ...THEN ICHIGO LAST. He was the most important to her and the last one on her mind.

Originally Posted by Sabaku Kyu

Matsumoto simply said that things were fine as they were. To that comment you added "...that Orihime couldn't be to Ichigo what Rukia is". That's your own interpretation. I'm not saying it's necessarily wrong given that the meaning of this statement is vague. But still, those aren't the words Matsumoto used.



.

No it's called COMPREHENSION. I never scored under a 98 average<---Lie if I saw less than a 100 I freaked out...English, Business English, Comprehension or language mechanics. I started school at 3 with a IQ level of 153...So I trust my own judgment.

The beauty of the English langauge is ...you can say one thing when you really mean another...thats the case with Matsu. Those aren't the words she used...but it's what she meant

Nakama...means closer than friends...a bond like anything else.

Now you want to use what Matsu said as gospel but not Inoue saying

'THEY ARE NOT JUST COMPANIONS (Tomodaichi) Kuchiki-San is an important person to Kurosaki-Kun. Afterall Kuchiki-san is the person who changed Kurosaki-Kun's world. That was the author having someone else tell us what RUKIA means to Ichigo.

Heart was Kaiens own idealism...but the word Heart is used for love just like the word like when it comes to Japanese romance.

I have to go to the spa....I will be back because there are some misconceptions I need to clear up for a few people...and dontcha miss me?

[Kazuma77]

After i read i seriously start to think if i should even post anything, because of your arguing what actually means nakama for last few pages... i didn't go further... i got bored.

Anyway, to go to the point of my post; I think that Rukia & Ichigo are closer then friends, but they just don't want to see it

Orihime shows from time to time that she likes Ichigo but its not clear if she looks at him as a big brother, protector, or love interest

[Amray]

If I was Ichigo I wouldn't care about those two, I'd be after Tatsuki.
Aaaaaaaaaaaaagh Yeeeaah! ^-^

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Kazuma77

After i read i seriously start to think if i should even post anything, because of your arguing what actually means nakama for last few pages... i didn't go further... i got bored.

Anyway, to go to the point of my post; I think that Rukia & Ichigo are closer then friends, but they just don't want to see it

Orihime shows from time to time that she likes Ichigo but its not clear if she looks at him as a big brother, protector, or love interest

Its already been confirmed that Orihime loves Ichigo in a romantic way. She had a big brother and he died so I dont think she would get confused. Its not suprising she would fall for Ichigo, he's protected her many times, he's powerful and kind. If you have something to say then you should post your views, if not dont bother. A new voice is always welcome though .

[Kazuma77]

Originally Posted by kakashi-genius

Its already been confirmed that Orihime loves Ichigo in a romantic way. She had a big brother and he died so I dont think she would get confused. Its not suprising she would fall for Ichigo, he's protected her many times, he's powerful and kind. If you have something to say then you should post your views, if not dont bother. A new voice is always welcome though .

Well i haven't got that far with the anime or manga.... i am in the beginning And thank you for the welcome post, nice to hear it

I need to see more of Bleach to give more solid opinion And one more thing.... is Ichigo even aware that Orihime has a crush on him or he is just playing stupid? Cuz sometimes he just reminds me on Naruto when it comes to stupidness and not seeing that a girl has a crush on him

[Kakashi]

Originally Posted by Kazuma77

Well i haven't got that far with the anime or manga.... i am in the beginning And thank you for the welcome post, nice to hear it

I need to see more of Bleach to give more solid opinion And one more thing.... is Ichigo even aware that Orihime has a crush on him or he is just playing stupid? Cuz sometimes he just reminds me on Naruto when it comes to stupidness and not seeing that a girl has a crush on him

no problem. lol he has no clue about her crush. Similar to Naruto and Hinata like you said but the more anime you watch the more you'll realise that every male lead is pretty clueless when it comes to girls. In Shakuga no Shana Yuji is uterly clueless (more so then Ichigo considering it's more obvious), same with school days...basically any anime with romance aspects...

[Sabaku Kyu]

Originally Posted by BleachOD

No it's called COMPREHENSION. I never scored under a 98 average<---Lie if I saw less than a 100 I freaked out...English, Business English, Comprehension or language mechanics. I started school at 3 with a IQ level of 153...So I trust my own judgment.

So, you're saying you have an IQ level that ranks in top 99.9% of the population?

The IQ scale doesn't realistically go above 130, and yet you outdo that mark by 20 points. Really, I find that pretty impressive.

The beauty of the English langauge is ...you can say one thing when you really mean another...thats the case with Matsu. Those aren't the words she used...but it's what she meant

Only this isn't the English language we're talking about, but a translation of a Japanese text. So no matter what your proficiency in English is, you are relying on someone else's interpretation of an author's writing. And even if that translation is 100% accurate, it still doesn't have Matsumoto saying anything regarding Orihime's chances at a relationship with Ichigo

Originally Posted by Sinta

YOu say why would feelings not surface if Ichigo and inoue are different from ichigo and Rukia, I say why would feelings surface when there is no reason to justify them? If Ichigo doesn't act like he has feelings for inoue, then what reason do we have to believe that he does?

First of all, Ichigo has shown feelings for Orihime. When she got hurt by Yami, he got so depressed over not being able to protect her that he couldn't even bring himself to face her at school (despite her having already said he was not to blame earlier). Ichigo swore to her that he wouldn't fail in protecting her the next time.

Spoiler:

In the fight against Grimmjow, Ichigo was losing until Orihime started cheering for him, then he immediately started fighting better again despite the fact that his mask was crumbling. Just hearing her voice increased his own will to win.

If you're going to say that these aren't any proof that Ichigo has any romantic feelings towards Orihime. I'd agree. I'd say it's no more proof of romance than anything Ichigo has done for or said to Rukia. Yet it seems every scene between Rukia and Ichigo is interpreted as romantic, while any scene involving Orihime is one-sided affection. Ichigo hasn't come close to expressing romantic affection for either Rukia or Orihime, but both have been shown to be deeply important to him and also deeply important to the story. So asking for justification why Orihime could become romantic interest to Ichigo is a moot point.

[Lucifer-Angel]

Originally Posted by Sinta

Mind you we are talking about that point in the manga; not the manga as a whole.

There is no point in doing this, Sinta, as in looking at the point in manga. Look, at one point of manga it seemed that TatsuIchi is going to be strong, and one point ChadIchi.

The point is that, I couldn't fathom why exactly would you want to look at this whole issue from a chapter whose development of characters had moved on drastically. Thanks for pointing this out, because at least we will realize that you base your arguments on that (whatever it is) point of manga and not as a whole. Doing this, is again, an act of oblivion because all else is ignored, especially for Orihime who had grown so much further from this point onwards.

It comes down to this,
I say they are in love and i give reasons as to why.
You disagree but can't go further as your own dogma won't allow you to. How does that turn into a debate when one side can't provide any analysis or opinions?

But didn't you say that you never argued why Ichigo and Rukia are in love?

Right, perhaps you never read on which ground I had disagreed upon. Sure, you may provide definitions on love and whatnot, just to prove that whatever relationship is between Ichigo and Rukia is love. However, I had disagreed on the notion that love needed a definition to dictate on the direction on this issue. To have a debate is to have a common ground on what is floored in the debate - which is how we see love (which is not definition). Since you wanted to know how I look at love - it's what we see as the existence of the equilibrium of devotion from both parties, and that from what you had posted thus far, how you define love is based on the impact in which a party had affected another.

Spoiler for Uhm...:

(Perhaps correct me rather than deny this because everybody could think, thank you very much)

Of course, in this case there are four ways to go about it, pro- and anti-IchiRuki, pro- and anti-IchiHime.

I am simply arguing that there's no basis to assume that IchiRuki will prevail in the manga, thus anti-IchiRuki, if you want it clearer.

I believe that most agree on the magnitude of the relationship, and that they had greatly impacted one other, and that this does not translate to love. From what the manga had shown, (yes, please read the whole thing), Ichigo's transition to a shinigami from Rukia's help somewhat had given him a reason to hold a power to save someone, and to change other people's life. If Ichigo's tales in the realm of Bleach were to center upon what Rukia is to him, there is never a need to have him affect so many others in which he grows in the relationship with others, and found his own circle of buddies as how Keigo had noted.

Rukia found her own place within her own circle of acquaintances (generally speaking) and also to whom she had estranged from, and to whom she had no close bonds prior to. Pre-SS showed the impact of Rukia had on Ichigo's friends, and SS arc henceforth shown how Ichigo's actions of saving her had put some sense into people who had meant a lot to her, namely Renji, and Byakuya. Obviously to her, both are people important to her, and Ichigo is not her sole centre of the universe, with Rukia also not the sole centre of Ichigo's universe. If such, wouldn't their relationship be more than stagnation in HM arc? True that he worries about her, however, you have to realize that Renji identified his actions of doubting Rukia as disrespect, not affection. Ichigo had yet to realize that far from being the powerless shinigami that he had taken the job from, she had regain herself thanks to him, and she is capable of independent actions from now on. Sure you can say partnership may lead to love, but to see that Ichigo in the latest had shown a deeper shade of affection for Orihime too, perhaps this may be what Kubo is heading, and perhaps not; which still boils down to the fact that the Ichigo-Rukia bond, while unique, is not exclusive and romance-inducing.

I can say without comparing Ichigo and inoue to ichigo and rukia very easily that they don't have a great bond. But I can only do that by examining their relationship, I see no special backstory that shows trust, romantic love (in any definition) and or overwhelming concern. I don't see ichigo changing or adapting to inoue. I don't Ichigo becoming more docile or awaking up from a funk because of her. I don't see him blushing, thinking about her, talking about her in a romantic way and much more. Basically I see nothing that would condone saying that Inoue is special to Ichigo. Now lets make a distinction. I do think they have a bond of friendship. They are friends, but there isn't indictation to the strength or complexity of hat friendship. I see Inoue the same as Chad, Ishida and renji. He gives her the same consideration he gives them. Simply put, ichigo doesn't act like someone that has feelings for Inoue.

You are not giving Kubo-sensei any chance at all for the possible future development. You mention that you cannot see Ichigo blushing for Orihime, and talking in a romantic way with her. However, if this is what you see as indication towards showing how two person are in love, then you pretty much agreed that Ichigo and Rukia had not shown any signs which in your words signifies any affection at all. Ichigo blushed for Yoruichi, Rukia blushed for Byakuya, and Orihime spoke romantically to a sleeping Ichigo; if you need any reminder. You see it in this way purely because you had refused all possibility of development beyond how you defined Ichigo-Orihime relationship, just a normal acquaintances.

Of course there are relations between these two way back pre-SS arc which connects both of them, and some "overwhelming concern". You are of course thinking that he had gone to HM because he had a score to settle with Aizen? You forget that Ichigo was indeed concerned (by any definition) about her, and that happened since chapter two. As Ichigo himself mentioned that he worried about Orihime for nothing and it wears him out. He worries for her when she decided to go SS with him. His concern elevated when she was injured. Of course these are simply not enough, because you mention stagnation.

Spoiler for manga:

He took Grimmjow's elbow darts that were meant for her, and turned Vizard for the sake of repelling the Cero blast that were meant for her and Nel. And note that the first one occured with her shield on. Chapter 310 had him going after her who's going after Yachiru in an incompletely healed state.

Again, I'm not saying that this is a definite sign of affection, but to claim in blatant refusal of the lack of growth in their relationship, with possibility of more development is looking/reading the manga through shipping eyes.

[ShuiMei]

asam, you should know my position is no different with Sinta's, I ignore you. I think your thought processes are completely illogical and your reading comprehension is awful. From past experiences it's quite clear that I am totally incapable of having a rational conversation with you and while I am tempted to address your totally bizarre reading of my post, of which made no mention to Orihime and had no implications of which girl was "better," I'm going to go with my better judgement and ignore it. Feel free to post here, I just won't bother addressing anything you say.

Moving on, I'll make an attempt to jump into the fray.
In regards to Ichigo and Rukia's relationship, whether they are friends, nakama, or more, I've long pushed forward that they are more than just friends. Now this does not have to mean that they have romantic feelings for each other, by this I only mean that their relationship, as acknowledged by others, including the perceptive Orihime, is special. Again, I stress that this does not have to have romantic implications, when I say that their relationship is one that is more than friends I simply mean that they have a very deep and special bond that goes beyond just friendship. As brought up many times before in this discussion, they changed each other's worlds and for Ichigo, Rukia is the one who "stopped the rain from falling." Again, this does not have to have romantic implications, but this does illustrate how Rukia is special to Ichigo.

With that, recognizing that the two are special to one another, it should be easy to understand why people think the two have a deep bond which could be a solid foundation for a romantic relationship. This is my position on the matter. I do not think that the two are in love with each other; however, I do think that they have strong, intense platonic feelings of attachment and appreciation for each other which are ambiguous at best and border between the lines of platonic and romantic feelings. They are, in my opinion, more than friends, but less than lovers, in that their feelings and what they mean to each other is deeper and more complicated than to just be called "friends" or "nakama" but not quite at the point where one can say assuredly that they have romantic feelings for each other at this point in time.

[PorkChop]

Originally Posted by HaNa-san

I like ichigo's expression on these pages, he looked so determined and passionate

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/13/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/160/14/

I missed these expressions since hm arc T^T

It's okay. You were just looking in the wrong place, it happened pre SS arc. ^^ Writing and situation has changed since SS.

http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/5/19/
http://www.onemanga.com/Bleach/4/19/

It's almost as if Ichigo was mirroring both instances because he identifies as a brother. One who protects his younger sisters at all costs and is watching the ideal of brother be spat upon in these two situations. Then again, I suppose I miss all these instances of Don Juan Ichigo.

[King87]

Asam thank you for the translation error, I never knew that. All you did really was help my argument even furthor of no romantic feelings between those two. But there is still no evidence of orihime and ichigo also. As stated before orihime and ichigo has grown but there is no where in the manga where you can say it is on Ichigo and rukia level ( not that I can see!). To show proof of there growth between episodes 124- 129 rukia and orihime are trying to find Ichigo after running off with vizards, only orihime finds him. Episode 115 and 116 are ones that can expound on both relationship.
If we are looking at what other people says as gospel in the bleach community. When rukia 1st showed up and her and renji started to beat him up because of his face matsumto and ikkaku argued whether ichigo like that or not. Later on Renji states that soul society chose rukia because she knows him best,( while she tried to divert and say skills). While renji came along because he is close with rukia. What I am trying to point out is everyone and their momma know in the bleach community have a closeness that is hard to put on paper.
When the arrancar 1st appeared and orihime was hurt, ichigo wanted to apologize but she would not let him. In class again he tried but hesitated.....(ep115). To say they have not grown would be a very ignorant statment on my part. In the dialogue between matsumoto and orihime I think what was being brought out was Ichigo is very young who does not know in this point in time what he wants!( which is true He is only 15). Matsumoto goes on to explain despite what rukia is to ichigo or how orihime feels about them too Ichigo needs them both in this confusing time. In my opinion that dialogue moment does not show that their are equal or that one is above the other. Becuase that is not what is said, what is said is that both are important right now in ichigo life. I can say my best friend and my girlfriend are important in my life, does not make them equal.
When orihime got injured he was deeply depressed, and this was a day before the vizards had showed up and he refused them. After rukia got injured it just reiforced that he needed help to protect his "friends"(notice I did not put one girl over another). When Orihime says goodbye to ichigo in his room was a deep moment that many people are trying to interpret as a love interest. Two reason why that can not be done is because Ichigo has not given any dialogue to orihime or about to suggest otherwise and Ichigo was sleeping, so saying your feelings to a man who can not hear it just a boost of self-esteem for her. As I said in my 1st post their is not evidence of a relationship on either side in bleach. sorry.

[Cookiez]

I think Orihime and Rukia are actually lesbians. One day Ichigos just gonna walk in on them...snuggling...^^,

and be like:

@.@;;

...I can see it now

[cloak_and_dagger]

What the hell.

In the midst of the constant arguing and intellectual bloodshed, BleachOD(i will attach -sama cuz she is awesome)-sama has converted me into an IchixRukia supporter when i like Inoue better!

What have you done to me?!?
*pulls hair*

[Starber]

Ichigo and Rukia because I despise IchiOri.

[HayashiTakara]

Originally Posted by Starber

Ichigo and Rukia because I despise IchiOri.

Its a common trend for Rukia fans to hate Orihime for no apparent reason.

[Amirali]

Originally Posted by cloak_and_dagger

What the hell.

In the midst of the constant arguing and intellectual bloodshed, BleachOD(i will attach -sama cuz she is awesome)-sama has converted me into an IchixRukia supporter when i like Inoue better!

What have you done to me?!?
*pulls hair*

Yeah......it's a sad feeling when you can't cheer on your favourite character to get with Ichigo . She did the same thing to me too. Well, Sinta shares some of the blame for that . To be fair to some of the eloquent Ichi-Ori supporters here though, I haven't had time to catch up on last few days of posts. Maybe I can hope to be converted back? (Crosses fingers and hopes.)

Originally Posted by Cookiez

I think Orihime and Rukia are actually lesbians. One day Ichigos just gonna walk in on them...snuggling...^^,

and be like:

@.@;;

...I can see it now

Or they might invite him to join them.